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Post by Second on Feb 16, 2011 18:41:06 GMT -5
Hey guys! I want to pick your brains here. I was looking at the Naiche Site and saw the picture of the soldiers in Co. “I“ , 12th Inf. Do you know if any other pictures exist that will show Jose Second. He and Jose Fist were members of the Co. I am also surprised not to find Jose First among Chihuahuas group. Both Joses' were inseparable. They were both captured by Mexicans at an early age, both escaped together. Both joined Co. I, 12th Inf. It has been said that the first thing Fist did when he arrived in Mescalero was to visit his old pal Second. I find it strange that he was not with Chihuahuas group. next is Lozen, has anyone determined who she may be. In the picture of the Apache playing card in Alabama someone mentioned her as being in the center to the left. The person I thought, you guys were referinng to is here as old lady connie. The photo of old lady connie that appears here with the black dress and jewelery appears to be a big frame woman. Old lady connie has been described as small bone and short. I have written about her in lenght in my book while she lived in White Tail. I am glad I can talk abou Lozen here and try to learn more about her. In the Reservation noone likes to talk about her. Most Apaches including myself believed she was the lady in the train picture with her face half covered by her hair, the one sitting next to Naiche's wife.
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Post by Second on Feb 14, 2011 10:48:51 GMT -5
Thanks couraouge, for the Geronimo family info. I do not know who the warrior that you posted is. He does have a medicine cap and it would his features are very similar to the warrior with drum in Chihuahuas group. He is not Jose Second. My book should be out soon, I have written the stories as they were told to me. I have included the pictures in question of Geronimo and wrote the storie as Bruce's great grandson told it to me. It is up to scholars and groups like this one to evaluated further. As I mentioned I am more up to speed on current history from 1913 on. So feel free to ask questions from that period on. Anything before that, I refer to you guys. Again, I think this is a great site. It has difinitively captured my attention. Today i got to see her a picture of Geronimo's group in the train with all the officers in it. I was under the that just a few officers were assigned to tha detail.
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Post by Second on Feb 13, 2011 11:21:58 GMT -5
Can anyone tell me how to download a picture here l
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Post by Second on Feb 13, 2011 10:55:14 GMT -5
The singers in our group are all descendents from that old group. As far as I know, there are no descendents of Colle, Curley in our group. Ramon's descendents are still very involved out of San Carlos/Fort Apache, AZ.
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Post by Second on Feb 13, 2011 10:47:14 GMT -5
Hello Natchez, I dont have a better quality picture. What you have is what I have. Although the shirts look very similar, I would have to say that the one Colle wears has an extra black lining between the white stripes. I have seen this pattern of shirts before and always thought they were issued as a typical prisoner's shirt. As you can see a lot of the other prisoners have similar stripped shirts. I also do not see the rings on Colle's fingers like I see in Geronimo. It is hard to say, the quailty is pretty poor. I do feel that the facial features and age range match more with Colle than Geronimo. I think the rings are the Key, as you usually keep them. Shirts come and go. These are the things I know. The Chiricahuas brought their medicine box with them to Florida. Ramon (last name Raley?) was in charge of the Crown Dancers. The drum carried by Colle suggest he is at the very least involve in the Medicine circle. I have always wondered if that was Ramon. I do not think that Colle, whom I referred to as Curley was part of that circle. I have asked my friend Jack to join this forum as he has done many paintings of Geronimo and feels that it is him. Mr Bruces family has passed down how Mr Bruce met and took pictures with Geronimo. The biggest key to identiying wether is Geronimo or Curley is from a picture that shows Geroniimo, Mr. and Mrs. Bruce along with is an Apache woman and chidlren photographed on that day at the same spot. Do you guys have that picture? If the Apache woman and or children can be identified as Geronimos wife/family or Colle's wife/family it will solve this dilemma. Do you know if Colle/Curley, had wife, children with them at the fort. Just that alone will help immensely.
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Post by Second on Feb 12, 2011 23:28:02 GMT -5
Hello Natchez I didnt say real arguments, I said, The arguments among you guys are great, as they make you think and pay attention to details. I meant it in a positive way. I also brougt up the point of the medicine cord. Was Seeltoe a medicine man, if he was not that proves is not hime as the number 2, Apache has one. It looks to me like my grandpa Second. but if someone can prove me wrong, i will accept it. and will make the adjustment to my book. The pic of Geronimo and Mr Bruce is already posted here. Mr Bruce's great grandson states that his grandmother told him that mr Bruce met Geronimo at Fort Marion. Mr Bruce was the Fort Keeper. I have never payed much attention to official records as most were altered. I say this because according to records Geronimo was at Fort Pickens. Common sense allows for Geronimo to visit his family at Fort Marion and the birth of his daughter Marion, born at the Fort. It is very posible to be him. I have friens who have studied Geronimo and they feel its him based on facial features. Mr Bruce's great grandson tells me its him. Common sense allows it to be him. Frankly, he looks too young to me to be Geronimo.
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Post by Second on Feb 12, 2011 19:14:40 GMT -5
Hello guys, I am here to learn as well. So forgive me if I have created confusion. The number two man is Jose Second. As you can see he is wearing a medicine cord. Jose and Nana were the medicine man in that group. I am not sure that Seeltoe was a medicine man. I think you guys are doing a great job. I am here mostly to answer questions on the culture. All these pictures are new to me, except for the pictures of Geronimo and Mr Bruce in Florida, they are copied under my name and book. I am fasinated by the pictures here. My book is composed of descendents from all these warriors and chiefs. I have written about them but this is the first time I get to see what they look like. The arguments among you guys are great, as they make you think and pay attention to details. I have a great deal of knowledge about White Tail. In a way I have become the keeper of White Tail's history. Any debates that need to be cleared, I may be able to help. I also know a lot about the Kanseah's and Chatto, Victorio and Toclanny, David Kazhe, Connie. Their descendents are among the singers in our group.
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Post by Second on Feb 11, 2011 22:41:58 GMT -5
Seeltoe and Jose Second are different men. Jose Second indian name was Itsa dit sa. He was married to a Warm Springs Apache name perhaps Juana. They had a daughter named Kukah. Both were taken to Cuba as servants. Jose and Chiricahu Jim were allowed to go to Mescalero in 94 to capture horses for the soldiers. Horses were captured and sent but both men remained in Mescalero. Jose served as a medicine man while in Mescalero. He remarried to a Mescalero woman, name unknown. Had three sons. His son Manuel married May Peso.
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Post by Second on Feb 10, 2011 19:37:39 GMT -5
On the pictures of Chihuahua's group, where everyone is sitting down. Jose Second is #2. In the picture where everyon is standing. Jose Second stands on Nana's right. On Nana's left is Chief Chihuahua. Jose Second, participated in the outbreak of 85 under Naiche, He surrendered with his family with Chief Chihuhua.
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Post by Second on Feb 10, 2011 10:45:51 GMT -5
On the train picture. You guys have it right from L to R is Jasper Kanseah, Yahnozha. I believe the young man below Lozen is David Kazhe. David was born in 1869. Him and Jasper were Geronimo's youngest warrriors. Perhaps the small frame lady next to Lozen is Tah-das-te, married to scout Kuni. She was born in 1860
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Post by Second on Feb 10, 2011 10:20:30 GMT -5
Is there anyone here from Mescalero? The names Naiches and Perico caught my attention. All the singers in my group are descendents from the Apaches in these photos.
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Post by Second on Feb 10, 2011 10:17:15 GMT -5
Hello Naiches! Thanks for the invite. Pls feel free to ask questions. Iam a singer with the Chiricahua Crown Dancers out of Mescalero, NM. I like what you guys got going here and decided to join in and contribute as much as I can, as well as learn from you guys. I have been writing a book for the past 5 yrs. It will bring light to new material and give the readers some never published photos and stories.
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Post by Second on Feb 9, 2011 22:31:30 GMT -5
Hello everyone! My name is Siggy Second Jumper. I am a Chiricahua descendent and Jose Second''s great-grandson. I am very involved in my culture and will love to learn and share knowledge of photographs and Chiricahua history.
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