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Post by tkavanagh on Apr 29, 2012 8:08:10 GMT -5
Deitmar: AFAIK, the only definitely Soule photo of Toshawa is the one you posted in reply 1 in the other thread, the Hardee-hat-with-a-star one. The other pix of him in a chair are by Gardner in 1972 in Washington. As for OHS, go to okhistory.cuadra.com/starweb3/l.skca-catalog/servlet.starweb3?path=l.skca-catalog/skcacatalog.webYou can browse, or make specific searches. For example, enter "Comanche Soule". I got 15 hits. Several of them have the caption "... CAMPS MEDICINE CREEK. ... WINTER OF 1872-3. PHOTO BY WILLIAM STINSTON SOULE, FORT SILL, I.T., Winter 1872 - 1873" indicating that they have updated their information based on my 1991 article "Whose Village?" (the basis for my "Comanche Domestic Architecture" e-article cited above.) tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Apr 28, 2012 17:58:13 GMT -5
Print Screen from PDF from the Oklahoma Historical Society. Two points: 1) Someone at OHS, years ago, misread someone's handwriting 'Josani' for 'Tosawi'. There was no Comanche named 'Josani' alive between 1879 and 1926; I have compiled and cross-referenced all of the Comanche censuses (see: mypage.iu.edu/~tkavanag/comtext.htm) [and the Kiowa censuses 1879-1901]. 2) Someone concluded if it was a an 'early' photo of a Comanche, the photographer had to be Soule. What?, someone involved with photographs would make a mistake and/or misidentify a photo? Would Soule himself, in the only images he actually copyrighted, have given different identifications to images of the SAME village? Say it ain't so! (see mypage.iu.edu/~tkavanag/asoule.html). But this ain't a Soule image May well be "Old Tosh". tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Apr 28, 2012 11:09:06 GMT -5
...As for Soule is written on the cover letter at the Oklahoma Historical Society. As much as I respect Chester Cowan at OHS, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have done this. tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Apr 28, 2012 6:16:30 GMT -5
naiches2:
Coupla points:
I don't think your first pic is Toshawa; second one maybe (compare mouths).
I don't think they're Soule (not his backdrop).
Also, "Col" J. Lee Hall was KCA agent 1885-87, long after Soule left. [The KCA agency was consolidated with the WCD agency in Anadarko in 1879. Tosawa had lived lived near Anadarko since about 1875.]
tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Apr 7, 2012 5:26:39 GMT -5
how was the century set up in indian camps; and drum message sent by drums.in the white indian books. they tell who what etc etc but what the true story -By "century," do you mean "sentry" i.e."lookout", "night guard", etc.? If so, to my (50 yrs +) knowledge, there were no such regularly assigned duties. - Of the latter, again to my knowledge, there were none (bad "white" books, bad. Go sit in the corner), other than the basic binary: you hear drums, it means someone's there; you don't hear drums, it means something else. tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Apr 1, 2012 12:47:25 GMT -5
Tom, if I understand you correctly, you think that Quenatosavit was his "real" name and Isatai was kind of a nickname or derogatory name that was applied to him by the Comanche after Adobe Wells. [sic, Walls] <snip> Dietmar: It’s not that I “think” that, I “know” that. ;-) Here’s the data: re the name Quenatosavit. It is /kwinai/ ‘eagle’, /tosavitU/ ‘white’ . There is apparently no mention of the man, either as Quenatosavit, White Eagle, or Isatai in the records before March 1873 (Kavanagh 1996/99:438). That said, the earliest mention (in a form of the name) of Isatai is J.J. Sturm’s 1875 report of his mission to bring in the ‘out’ bands. He is listed on all the post-1879 censuses as Quenatosavit, although his children are listed in some form of Isatai (e.g. Eschiti). Now, as for his role: Sturm implied that he was more than just the “medicine man”, but was indeed the /paraibo/ ‘chief’ of the village, albeit still a “young man”; Quanah, was also a “young man of much influence.” Although he was the leader of the third largest group on the early reservation (after Quanah and Cheevers), there is apparently little mention of him in the various political deliberations during the ante-1901 reservation period (i.e., in the leasing of the grass to Texas cattlemen, or the fights over the 1892 Jerome Agreement and subsequent allotment of the reservation.) In re this latter, No, he did not die ca. 1890, as suggested by Charlie above. Rather he outlived Quanah, living until 1916. Indeed, after Quanah’s death in 1911, he tried to get himself named “Principal Chief,” at least of the “Walters” Comanches, if not the Comanches as a whole. [Walters is a community in the southern part of the reservation; at allotment, Quenatosavit and his family took allotments along Beaver Creek on the east side of the reservation, not in the west near Cache, where Quanah lived.] Aside: Charlie also mentioned “...meaning "Wolf's dung" ... a very curious name!” Not really: Comanche names can be quite scatalogical. The word quetop /kwitapu/ excrement/feces/dung, occurs in several Comanche names and ethnonyms, e.g., Paruaquitap ‘Elk Dung’; Esiquita, ‘gray feces’, aka Mescalero Apaches; Quitarinuu ‘Excrement People’, Pawnee.’ ‘Wolf’s Dung’ would be Isaquetop. tk Esimotsotaivo
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Post by tkavanagh on Mar 30, 2012 18:35:36 GMT -5
The moccasins are not Cheyenne, but whether Kiowa or Comanche cannot be determined from the photo. (Specifically, on Comanche moccasins the bead lanes would have different designs).
[Note also the lack of eyebrows, although that is not diagnostic.]
tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Feb 10, 2012 13:02:55 GMT -5
Dietmar:
Thanks for the credit.
A couple of comments:
-It’s PenA, not PenE. (actually, phonetically it should be pihnáa.)
-“...Turtle/White Dove...”
I’ve been wondering if there were not several individuals who have become confused (a la the various Comanche “Iron Shirt”), e.g.:
* The paraivo Tosawi (in various spellings), tosa ‘white’, wi ‘knife’ [which Agent Tatum, in 1869, said referred to a knife he had when he was a boy, but it is also an old Shoshonean name, e.g. the White Knife Shoshone)], who Tatum also said wanted to be called ‘Turtle Dove’ (see next), but apparently never was.
*a youngish man, who Joe A said was named Kuewóotosavit (kuewóo ‘dove, tosavit ‘white’), nephew of Pianahutsama (pia ‘big’, nahutsama ‘saddle blanket’) and who was one of the scouts with the Texas Rangers at the Battle of Little Robe Creek in 1858.
*Tosawecut (-cut ‘possessor’), who Joe A said was on the other side of that battle
-“He is well known for surrendering in 1867 at Fort Cobb”, -“He surrendered at Ft. Cobb and agreed to move to an agency.”
Yes, he went south from the Medicine Lodge treaty grounds in Kansas, but he was no stranger to the Ft Cobb area. He was there from at least 1859, when the Texas Reservation Indians were moved north, thru its occupation by the Confederates and later abandonment by them in 1862. He had a ‘house’ there and probably stayed in the vicinity. Thus I wouldn’t call his movement to the area called a “surrender”: he was going home. [And remember, Comanches had been living in that part of Oklahoma since the 1750s.]
Meanwhile, after the Confederate abandonment, Cobb was not re-established as either a Federal military post or as an Indian agency. In 1868, Agent Leavenworth established his agency at nearby Eureka Valley, and the military presence was established at Fort Sill about 50 miles south. The agency was moved there shortly thereafter. Meanwhile, the Wichitas, Caddos, and Delawares [WCD] had re-established their presence along the Washita at Anadarko, down river from Cobb, and equidistant from Sill.
-“Tosawa in the 1860s and 70s was the most influential chief of the Peneteka Comanches.”
That would have been not without political contention from Asehabit, Kababbywite (aka Carawa, etc), and the others. Indeed, his December 1871 move from Sill to Anadarko was probably as much to establish a distinct political existence for himself and his people as to get away from the other “wild Comanches.” In February 1872, claiming to be “head and controlling chief” of the Penatekas, he asked agent Richards that the other Penateka local bands still at Fort Sill be transferred to his jurisdiction. To this, Tatum responded that not only did two of those bands not want to go north, but that the “bands of Comanches have no head and controlling chief . . . each one acts independently . . . so far as it suits him.” The importance of this incident is not that Tatum was accurately describing the existing Comanche political organization, but rather that he was influencing the direction it would take in the future. By denying the existence of a “head and controlling chief,” a status which had existed in the past, he was ensuring that there would be none in the future.
Tosawa and his people remained in the north. Thus their descendants have allotments in the northern part of the old reservation south of the Washita River.
It was perhaps his funeral in 1883 of which Hermann ten Kate caught a glimpse.
-the cdv from eBay is probably not Soule, but rather may be a Bliss image.
tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Nov 15, 2011 8:03:44 GMT -5
Unfortunately, that's on hold right now. The ms has been accepted by Nebraska Press, but I need to go back and check my editing against the originals. Also, UNLP wanted some minor additions to the Intro, which I have not been able to get to, but I hope to get them done this Fall.
tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Nov 13, 2011 15:04:49 GMT -5
Quanah:
Sorry it took so long to see your message.
What do you need to know?
tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Aug 26, 2011 14:26:48 GMT -5
Ura, gramamew, for the nod.
c2q23:
You are interested in the "Southern Plains wars"? Ah, where to begin. From your short list, I presume you are refering to the post -1867 so-called Red River War. There's a lot more before that, ya know.
I can speak only of the Numunuu.
Ultimately, the modern source will be my _The Comanches: A History_. It summarizes all other (as best as I could) available primary sources.
tk
ps., re: "The Comanches: Lords of the Southern Plains by Ernest Wallace"
That should be _The Comanches: Lords of the South Plains_ by Ernest Wallace AND E. Adamson Hoebel. Even though the modern Comanche Nation embraces it, the epigram "Lods of the South Plains" was invented by Wallace in the early 1950s; I have found no pre-1970 usage.
tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Jul 18, 2011 15:30:12 GMT -5
Last fallk (see above, reply #2), I wrote:
"In 1990 (IIRC, maybe 1991)..."
I have since looked at my notes. It was in the summer of 1988.
tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Mar 25, 2011 13:12:25 GMT -5
Comanches reckon kin on both sides, i.e., bilaterally,
tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Mar 25, 2011 13:09:10 GMT -5
Re: "Black Arms".
The Comanche name for the Cheyenne is Pakanavon, /paka/ 'arrow', /navon/, 'painted'. The sign for this is to draw lines with the right hand across the left forearm. The ethynonym is sometimes given as 'striped arrows', allegedly a reference to the Sacred Arrows, but there is nothing in the ethnonym specifically about 'stripes', nor for that matter, about the color of the painted arrows.
tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Feb 20, 2011 16:29:10 GMT -5
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