chi1
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Post by chi1 on Aug 24, 2017 13:22:32 GMT -5
Can anyone help identify these Chiricahua women in these photos: Hello and welcome, If and very if the women in the photo were Chiricahua, it seems the photo was taken like near Fort Bowie landscape. And the only photos known of Chiricahua near Fort Bowie were on march 1886 of the Chiricahua women taken prisonners and the Geronimo's group after the final surrender. But the photos were alaways taken on studios or with military guards. Those women seemed free and the one on the background, more I look more I wonder if she was not Dostheseh (Cochise's wife and mother of Naiche) She and Fun's mother were sent on summer 1886 in Fort Bowie by US Army for triyng to convince their son to surrender. If I am right but I have doubts, the woman in front was Fun's mother Ettshonn. If you notice the plant on rigth top it is a Yucca plant which is more common on New Mexico and Chihuahua deserts, Fort Bowie has more altitude for that plant. There are other types of yucca at Fort Bowie such as yucca spanish dager or Mohave yucca, but for sure is not an study landscape picture as many others, some place around New Mexico maybe.
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chi1
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Post by chi1 on Jul 18, 2017 10:51:33 GMT -5
Good to know there still some field research, let me contribute with you, some time ago I met Sara Mizquez from the Mezcalero Res, maybe 18 years ago, but since then I stayed with a doubt regarding his surname, I have been studying a little bit the phonetic corruption and errors of translation of the Atabascan Spanish-English, As we may know Mezcalero Reservation was formed besides Mezcalero also of Chiricahua mostly Chihene and Lipans, on the historic frontier between Mezcalero and Lipan Apache, there was a branch of Apaches surnamed "Múzquiz" in which "Alsate" stands out, may be "Pedro or Leonardo Múzquiz" . *It is believed that his name Alsate is a deformation of the surname of the captain of the Mexican army Francisco Arzate, assigned to the Presidio del Norte (Ojinaga, Chihuahua). *Alsate is identified as Mescalero apache but general Guajardo that classifies him as Lipán apache *(apacheria is-G.Alonso). Alsate was the son of Miguel Múzquiz with an Apache Mezcalero Mother, Miguel Múzquiz was prisoner of the Apaches from its adolescence and came from a family of much history in Coahuila, since the town of Villa Santa Rosa was renamed Melchor Múzquiz, (Jose Ventura Melchor Ciriaco de Eca and Múzquiz de Arrieta) an ancestor who was a politician and military who fought for the independence of Mexico and who became President of the Mexican republic. Then having an Apache who did not have a 100% pronunciation of Spanish says his Last Name "Múzquiz" and having an Anglo-American writing what’s hear and having a Mexican reading in Spanish what the American wrote we can have the word "Misquez" which has no translation in Atabascan, please correct me if I’m wrong. If you have the opportunity to investigate with relatives of Sara Mizquez and check their origins, we could have a relationship between Alsate and Sara Misquez. I don't even know if Mizques is married surname. Any of you know if there is a board for Alsate on this forum? there are plenty of data for Alsate out there. Also there is a section for Apache/Inde board for Mezcalero we may be posting there unless your investigation is based on Chiricahua on Mezcalero Res or if is considered Mezcalero as a sub division of the Chiricahua. Regards!
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chi1
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Post by chi1 on Jun 28, 2017 16:48:25 GMT -5
Message received, I'll get in contact.
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chi1
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Post by chi1 on Jun 2, 2016 17:37:32 GMT -5
esa, keep investigating, a DNA test will help, you will be investing little bit more than 100 dollars, this will tell you about Nde bloodline percentage, but not to direct family as for to Cochise, unless a direct descendant wants to be tested, which I believe little probable. But there are apache bloodline spread on south United States and northern Mexico, most of them lost tribal identity, but not all Nde enter into the rolls. Also if you are Nde, it looks very pretentious to be descendant of Nantan or Biduyahs or Dadsodahae, even though there are posibility of descendace out of the res, and spread as I mentioned before, statistically, there were many more apaches with descendance than the few that gets into the history.
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chi1
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Post by chi1 on Jun 1, 2016 12:04:39 GMT -5
Called troublesome, by those who judged, but in not known if defended any right of his people, as even the minutest rights to defend our lands and natural resources were called rebellions, but who were the troublemakers ??
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chi1
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Post by chi1 on May 31, 2016 15:57:11 GMT -5
Ethnicity not differentiate between Mimbreños (chihene), carrizaleros, aguas nuevas, tséghátahéndé, etc. remember that ethnicity is Nde or Ndeh, the names were given or were taken to differentiate the clans, and although it is nomadic, had a certain territory, briefly defined, but this was the pattern for the formation and disappearance of families, alliances and full clans, consider that as such, the Nedhni emerged from these alliances have been familiar, strategic, political or casual.
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chi1
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Post by chi1 on Apr 24, 2015 18:48:13 GMT -5
Here are some things that remain puzzling about Victorio's final battle at Tres Castillos. At least - these things are problems for my understanding. :-) 1. Why was Victorio so far south into Mexico at this stage. He was travelling on territory that was less familiar (perhaps), and did not offer really good protection for the woman and children. So why was he in this part of the land, instead of further north where the Apache strongholds were located? 2. Why was Victorio surprised by the Mexican forces who were trailing him? Did he fail to post scouts on the rear of his group who would see an enemy approaching from behind? Or did he post those scouts, but the Mexican forces were clever and found a way to distract or kill them silently? 3. Why did Lozen choose not to travel with her brother on this journey? 4. How many horses did Victorio have when he fought this final battle? The availability of horses would have given him more choices for defense, because he could have split his warriors into different attacking parties. But with few horses, his men would have been confined to the hills and piles of rock. Pehaps the Chihennes had already killed a lot of their horses, because they were low on food. 5. If some women, children and old men could escape in the night, before the final fight when all of the warriors were killed, then why didn't Victorio attempt to use his warriors to break out at night through the Mexican lines? Perhaps we will never know the answers to most of these questions. But there may be some answers still within the Chiricahua community today, and some other answers that could be researched by people who look into old information from Mexico. dT dT, Victorio was not in unfamiliar territory, he frequently operate on this area, the Chihene were more of the desert than of the Sierra Madre, also Victorio said to have been abducted by the Apache parent son of Mexican mestizo women near by, and being on a familiar territory does not detract him, it was a simply unfortunate situation, and he brought him children women and elderly, which made slower the progress, once reached, left the vulnerable column to protect them but the Warriors also lost lead by this maneuver, not counting their disproportionate number 400 Mexican soldiers, irregular, Ranchers and Tarahumara scouts against only 70 brave and fierce warriors who resisted all afternoon and evening; also he had a busy month in both countries; for example: On September 10, US troops receive permission to enter Mexico, with 68 Apache scouts under Captain Charles Parker; a detachment of 20 "Buffalo Soldiers", commanded by Lieutenant James Maney; and another detachment of "Texas Rangers", commanded by Colonel George W. Baylor, addressing the Sierra de la Candelaria (municipality of Ahumada, Chihuahua) where Victorio has been seen. On October 4, ten companies of the 10th Cavalry of the United States move to the Mexican side of the Rio Grande to prevent Victorio can return to the United States through Texas. (The 10th Cavalry and 350 irregular Colonel Terrazas locate it, tightening the noose, when the government of Mexico informs the American troops that their presence is no longer required abandoning Mexico between angry protests. The Colonel Grierson sought unsuccessfully , permission to return to General Sheridan). On October 14, at a place called Tres Castillos (Three Castles) Victorio is reached by Mexican troops under Colonel Joaquin Terrazas, who divides his forces into smaller columns with a front of 20 men only way to hide the numbers all soldiers, so the Apaches did not flee at the sight. (Being one of the columns 1 km from the hills, seen as down to about 30 Apache attack them and the rest is an unfortunate history between the Mexican official report and the narrative of survivors, some say it was the first Victorio to fall into the hands of the Tarahumara Mauricio Corredor, the Ndeh ensure that fought until the last moment in a cave on the hill, whatever it was, both demonstrate courage
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chi1
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Post by chi1 on Mar 23, 2015 18:17:22 GMT -5
The nees of the many outweigh the needs of the One. The fact of the matter is or was the traitional ways which can be romantized by whomever. As for royalty is was none, it was the strongest an wisest warrior whose lot was chosen or won for attributes in battle or meeting the needs of the people. And whose leadership coul be question or questioned at any time by which warrior had issues with the leadership of the Nantan. The sum of any [erson who leads is the ability to give to his group the basics life, food, and peace. Which many other nantans had proven way before the end of the Nde lifestyle. The fact of the matter is as with any group ie the spartans whose own way of life proved to be admired by many. The traditional ways of teaching young boys or novices the ways of War and the hunt, and other traits such as the War' talk which many dont speak of or remember. Only The Strong Survive! Enjun Great Lesson!!!
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chi1
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Post by chi1 on Mar 9, 2015 14:06:02 GMT -5
So is this another Chino than the man below or is one of them misidentified?? You can find federick Chino at Mezcalero Res. direct grandson of Chiho
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chi1
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Post by chi1 on Mar 9, 2015 13:55:24 GMT -5
Here are Chief Chuhuahua and another Chino as old men. Exept. from A.Radbourne "Mickey Free": p.149-150 Radbourne cited Allen Smith, Jr. about Chiricahua Apache dance in "An Apache War Dance": '"big medicine man named Chino" who signaled the changes of tempo for drummers...'; and p.251: 'it is unclear whether the shaman, Chino, was the Chiricahua whose Apache name was as Tlol-glish and who, in late 1880s, was living among the Eastern White Mountain people as leader of the "L" tag band; or if he was the Warm Spring Apache of Loco's band listed at that time among prisoners at Mount Vernon. The Spanish sobriquet means "Curly"(!)' IMHO: At that time in that place could be a lot of people named "Curly" This picture is also taken at Fort Sill. Chino was a common name used. This Chino is the Chiricahua. There is also a Western Apache by this name. They are two different people. The man on the right seems to be nana, there are other pictures of Chihuahua with Nana I'll see if I can find one.
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chi1
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Post by chi1 on Mar 7, 2015 21:00:17 GMT -5
I live around, probably as locals we found the way to lead with it. But if sometime you need help do not hesitate to let me know
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chi1
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Post by chi1 on Mar 4, 2015 18:49:56 GMT -5
I Found This Information on Casas Grandes Chihuahua
I Apologize for the quick translation.
Free latest apache in Chihuahua was a woman ** "Indian" is, today, a legend in Casas Grandes. THE CHRONICLE OF CHIHUAHUA November 12, 2011 By Froilan Meza Rivera Casas Grandes, Chih.- The latest issue of free Apaches and land fighters in Chihuahua, was captured almost fifty years ago in the foothills of the Sierra Madre. It was a woman who was made a slave, sold in marriage to a villager in Jovales, and who has since never issued a single word in mind of a rebellion against his captors in the extreme. "Indian" is, today, a legend in Casas Grandes. Still in the forties of the Twentieth Century, people saw spoke of surprise and occasional encounters with the remnants of decaying Apache bands. Fifty years after the Mexican army to expel the last Apaches Chihuahuan territory, and likewise they had surrendered in the United States heads the last rebel Apaches! It is known that after the death of Captain Juh, many Apaches were scattered, and went back to impregnable places they knew. They were called "broncos Indians," many of whom managed to find in rural communities without express their true ethnic ascendancy. Only a few survivors to social debacle that ended his village, formed small roving bands hiding and went desbalagadas in the mountains. By the direction of the mountains between Wood and Casas Grandes, was in the forties unconfirmed rumor, that a "savage" Indian woman wandered Jovales population. They had seen, they said, by the Mesa del Gavilan. Who was naked and riding "to mop" equal bronco horse she. Chased two individuals who decided to hunt. This story is told Jorge Cordero Lurueña , who studies the life and history of the original ethnic groups in these lands. At one time, the persecutors harassed women and cornered, so it was only him deep into the now named in his memory as "Peak of India". He went and hid there, but one of the hunters stood there, at the foot of the peak, to see that not escape, while the other went to ask for help ". Several came to participate in the capture of India, and went with the hope of gain, because he has to tell the reader still in those years it was used the "broncos" Indians who were captured, were sold as slaves to whom wanted acquire. Tied hand and foot, the woman was taken to the town of Jovales, where he was exposed to the curiosity of the people. Nobody could touch, and several men were beaten and tried to rape her away from her violently. Women they pleased, they said, because I was naked from the waist up, but by dint of bites, scratches and kicks, no one could "tame". They treated her like a wild horse in corral. "There they kill", decided after several failed attempts to sell, because nobody cared to take her home, given its ferocity. But at the last moment Mr. Francisco "Chico" Sandoval, arrived and announced that he would take with him to India. Something happened inside that room when the man's gaze locked with hers. Suddenly the face of the apache woman and became distended, to grimace in serene face. "un tie her" ordered "Chico" Sandoval sellers, while depositing silver coins that had asked them to change the slave. "Do Not. You'll kill. Better than hang them in the square, "said one of the hunters. But at the insistence of the buyer, will eventually loosen his bonds with caution. All fears were unfounded because the more docile way the apache drifted Indian arm of the man who loved her companion at home. Francisco Sandoval made her his wife and took her several children, who joined the ladder with that man already had, because he was a widower. Apache Indian was an exemplary mother not only for the children themselves, but for the children of widower and his late wife, and a good wife and homemaker. The only "but" they put him was that never spoke again. Cordero Lurueña refers to a Martin Sandoval, who is living grandson of the Apache woman. And we know that other grandchildren of her and don "Chico" live today in Colorado.
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chi1
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Post by chi1 on Mar 4, 2015 18:25:55 GMT -5
I join this forum few months ago, and I haven't read all posts, I just start reading this post today and I can see a lot of interesting comments, I'm not sure if you still interested or feeding this forum that was started on 2011, I see some comments up to 2013, but if you want to continue it, I can contribuite with few things, I'm actually living on Chihuahua state and I know several of the ancient sacred lands, still a lot of them more to visit, hope I can do it on my lifetime, somethings you mentioned on this forum is about Lipan Apaches, first, they are still visiting and settled on Mexico but basically on the Coahuila state to the east of Chihuahua specially to Muzquiz Coahuila, Muzquiz is the last name of a General/Governor of Coahuila, but some of their relatives (Miguel Muzquiz father of Alstate Mother Lipan) were taken by the Lipans and actually on Mezcalero reservation you can find descendance, such as Sara Misquez, Muzquiz such as lot of words that deteriorated by the pronunciation of names in Spanish written by Americans in English according to their phonetic, well, not much Lipans on Chihuahua but Coahuila's. On Chihuahua there were Mezcaleros on the east, Chihenes on North Central, Nednais or Nendais and ChoKonen (Chokohonde-Jocomes) On the West and down south to sierra madre, Gulkahendeh On central and south Chihuahua... Pronounciations vary depending if in mexican-spanish english, or spaniards like Jocomes written by father Eusebio Kino on the 1700's...
Well, In my opinion Regarding to Kayitah four possibilities:
1.-They might have been absorbed by other tribes of the area, maybe even by former enemies. Yaqui? Tarahumara? Opata? YES SOME OF THEM.
2.-It's also possible that they were eventually hunted down by Tarahumaras and mexican troops. If so, the surviving men and women may have been sent to prisons in Chihuahua or Sonora, or sold into slavery and prostitution, while the children were given into mexican foster homes/families. YES A LOT OF THEM, BUT A LOT CHILDREN AND WOMEN WERE ALSO KILLED, EVEN MORE SAD. BUT MAINLY BY MEXICAN TROOPS MORE THAN BY TARAHUMARAS, THEY WERE ALSO SLAVES OF THE MEXICAN TROOPS NOT THE CASE OF MAURICIO CORREDOR, HE WAS MORE ASSIMILATED TO MEXICANS THAN TARAHUMARAS.(MEXICAN TROOPS MEANS MOST WHITES DESCENDANT OF SPANIARDS)AND DON'T FORGET US TROOPS AND APACHE SCOUTS.
3.-The third theory is that they eventually gave up their traditional way of life and became vaqueros and farmers like their former mexican raiding victims. Could be that some of them took that route. MOST OF THEM BECAME FARMERS, BUT DIDN'T GAVE UP TRADITIONS AT ALL, WAY OF LIFE YES, BUT YOU CAN STILL SEE TRACES OF CEREMONIES, FOODS, WORDS, CLOTHING, DANCE ETC. AND THEY BECAME FARMERS BECAUSE THE US WOULD MAKE THEM PRISONERS AND MEXICANS WANT TO ANNIHILATE THEM, SO THEY HIDE BETWEEN MEXICANS(INDIANS ASSIMILATED TO MEXICAN LIFESTYLE, BIG PERCENTAGE OF NDEH "CONVERTED" TO MEXICANS SINCE THE PRESIDIOS ERA) NOT MUCH MIXTURE WITH WHITES UNTIL MID 20TH CENTURY, MEXICO WAS VERY ELITIST ON SOCIAL CLASSES AND RACES.
4.-Now the fourth possibility is my favorite one, and probably wishful thinking. What if they are still there, living as peaceful nomads, hunters and gatherers, in the vast Sierra Madre? NICE BUT NOT FOR MUCH TIME! THEY EVENTUALLY BECAME "MEXICANS".
My Family is from Colonia Victoria Municipality of Ascencion Chihuahua, is on midway between Janos and Santa Rita del Cobre, we have around Florida Mountains, Mimbres River end, Laguna de Guzman, Laguna de Santa Maria, Cañon de Boca Grande, Mountain el Espia or Frijolar and it was an apache settlement called Carrizalillo because it was people that previously were on Presidio el Carrizal. This place is 1 1/2 hour dirve from Janos and the beginig of Sierra Madre with Carcay Mountain (Word deteriorated the other way, from Athabascan to Spanish) or Carcaj Mountain. Places full of apache hystory. We are Red People. Now I'm living at Samalayuca and first thing I can see every day at wakeup is Sierra de la Candelaria Peak.
If is of your interest I can have a list of places and events for the Nde on Chihuahua State specially Sierra Madre. and provide a lot more information. Just I don't know where to start.
Regards.
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chi1
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Cochise
Feb 27, 2015 18:15:57 GMT -5
Post by chi1 on Feb 27, 2015 18:15:57 GMT -5
Interesting information Jasper4; then the mother of Dos Teh Seh was Mexican, will have more details as to where she was? or was taken captive? any specific town? even better what family she came from? also consider to whom we call Mexicans, not all Mexicans were mestizos (mixed) Indian and Spanish blood, there was much migration to northern Mexico from Poland and Italy for work in the mines and mills, plus American merchants but there were many who were native blood called Mexicans because culture have been assimilated as to Mexicans, including many Ndeh, at least from Cananea Sonora to Ascension Chihuahua and as south as Namiquipa Chihuahua and Bavispe Sonora. Around them were other natives such as Pimas, Seris O'odoham, Raramuri-Tarahumare, Tepehuane, Huichol, etc. but Sumas and Ndeh on the area descibed above.
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chi1
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Cochise
Feb 23, 2015 17:58:02 GMT -5
Post by chi1 on Feb 23, 2015 17:58:02 GMT -5
Member of the Apache Royalty. If Kingship exists among the Ndeh; Something we can not deny about Cochise and Naiche off course, is the apache royalty in full, although the simplicity and equality prevailed in the tribal organization, where everyone had the opportunity to lead their own cell or clan or fraction, where people followed their leaders by conviction and not by obligation, Cochise's family was unquestionably formed by Apache leaders, whether Cochise was the son of Pizago Cabezon or Juan Jose Compa, one son of El Compa and Pizago for sure was son or mentored from a leader, both protagonists of the apache struggle in their respective time, Cochise enriches their offspring with none other than princess Dos Teh Seh, daughter of the leader of the epic Battle of Pozo Hediondo The Great Mangas Coloradas leaving all his lineage to Naiche, descent preserved to this day.
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