Cultural theft ( American Natives of the Plains)

[John]

Hi, my name is John Groeneveld, born in 1943 at Rotterdam, the Netherlands.
Since my youth I am interested and fascinated by the lifestyle of the North-American Natives of the Plains. I wanted to express the sympathy and respect that I have for these very special people, therefore I created warshields, medicineshields, and ghostdanceshields myself.

I have a very interesting question !!!
I would really like to know what the Native Americans are thinking about my work, the making of replicas of old traditional ( Plains ) shields ?
Can this be considered cultural theft?

My website www.plainsindians.nl is an educational presentation in no way intended to exploit the Plains people, their culture, or their traditional beliefs.

I appreciate your comments.
John

[ladonna]

One has to make sure that you never use the word native, indian or refer to a tribe, you have make people understand that you are not native and this so called art is not native.

Of course peole will get upset if you used a family shield image

[John]

Hi Ladonna, I am really glad you answered my question about cultural theft !!!
I wanted to say that I am agree with the fact that too many non-native people are trying to take what does not belong to them. But, it has never been my wish to "steal" your culture.
Not only did I create this website and shields for myself, but I designed it to be informative and educational to all the people who support the Native American beliefs and traditions.
I make my replicas completely in humble respect to the Native Americans.

Dear Ladonna, what's your advice ? Telling myself to stop making shields and information onto my website ?

John

[ftpeckpabaksa]

Hey there. I have to agree with LaDonna on this. Also, there are laws made to prohibit this type of activity. On the pow-wow trail u see this because of all the beadwork coming out of China or Japan. But, always there has been people who specialize, study, learn, write or make thing about Native Americans and somehow, this brings about a sense of entitlement because they feel and think they are experts.

Like I stated though, its always one aspect of Native American cultural which trickles down to a selection of a Tribe or group of people where this expert operates. This is so true with Native American culture/religion. We have people who claim Hunka and run Sweat Lodges, goto Sun Dances but never been to a Pow-Wow...a Give Away, never spent more than two weeks amongst the people they want to claim or learn about. With this new attraction or amazment in Native American culture and history, because remember even 30 years ago no non-Native American wanted to be Native American. So, we have this feeling coming from outside a reservation this urgency to preserve, a certain aspect of Native American culture/religion coming from Non Native Americans to save Native Americans and their ways, history etc. Like everyone wants to be the one white man in Dances With Wolves or Last of the Dogmen, or just your typical Hollywood Movie about natives where, a single White man comes amongst Native Amecans and saves them, and lives amongst them.

We have our own "experts" among us. Who are working to preserve our ways. Because were not, like the Romans or Greeks who lived years and years ago. We still new to this world and still remember a lot..... But for whatever reason, for every one of our experts we have 10 Non-Natives who claim to be experts and the one Native American expert is not part of the social circle or group.

[ladonna]

May 22, 2010 13:37:24 GMT -5 John said:

Hi Ladonna, I am really glad you answered my question about Cultural theft !!!
I wanted to say that I am agree with the fact that too many non-native people are trying to take what does not belong to them. But, it has never been my wish to "steal" your culture.
Not only did I create this website and shields for myself, but I designed it to be informative and educational to all the people who support the Native American beliefs and traditions.
I make my replicas completely in humble respect to the Native Americans.

Dear Ladonna, what's your advice ? Telling myself to stop making shields and information onto my website ?

John

I can not tell you not to do something but can advise you on what is right. If the shield has a family symbol on it then you owe that family . It is against the law to make art and crafts that are not native and say they are native. You have to say non indian- non native= non native american on everything you make.

[John]

Hi ftpeckpabaksa, I am a bit late but I would like to thank you for your comments into this very important issue ( cultural theft ). I'm just glad these issue are being discussed. It's a pity that so few Native americans react on this forum !!!!. There have been only 2 posts and 182 views. Do you have an explanation for that ?.

I'm non-native, but I am always been intrigued by native life and traditions. My website is an educational presentation and my replica's are not for sale !!!. The intent of my website is to honor a proud and noble people, the Native American People and I present on this website the culture that makes them unique.

When I first began making replicas of traditional shields of the Native American People of the Plains, I didn't know what's the feeling of the Native Americans about my artworks. For me, music, language and art, is very sacred, and should be done in a respectful way. I don't claim to be an expert, just being respectful to the Native Americans. Now, I understand that some of the Native Americans feel that when non-Natives take their traditions and try to replicate them, they are offending their culture and the meaning of those traditions. I had not seen it from this point of view before. But, I learned a lot, which is the most important thing. Therefor, I will stop making replica's of Native American shields very soon, and all my shields will be removed from my website.

Dear ftpeckpabaksa, it bothers me that you think that someone who is non-Native, or is part Native ( look's White ), is making a mockery of the Native American ways. I do not believe this is the case. I think that they are honest, and have a good heart. If we believe this, then they should be commended. It can only bring our races closer together. I believe all cultures have something to offer the world. I would like to say that beyond our cultures, we are all human beings.
The Native Americans certainly has many great and beautiful teachings. If I were a Native American I would be proud of it !!!!.

Best regards
John Groeneveld
The Netherlands
Europe
www.plainsindians.nl

[dickmill]

Discussing cultures is a little like discussing religions or politics -- no matter how good your intentions, you always get attacked. So...this will probably get me attacked. I'm not an American Indian, so this is just an opinion from an observer.

Many people admire other cultures, or religions, or groups that they aren't a member of. It's good to admire.

Some people (not me!) have artistic talents and apply those to things they like. You don't have to be Catholic if you are a sculptor and want to depict Christ on a cross. You don't have to be African-American to create a painting of Martin Luther King.

I understand that many people resent MAKING MONEY from outside the culture. Even labeling creations as "non-authentic" creates competition for the real thing.

But, creating art because you're talented and then NOT offering it for sale should offend no one.

I think it would be a mistake to remove your creations from your web site. How else could we appreciate your talent? You can clearly explain that you don't offer these objects for sale.

[ftpeckpabaksa]

May 29, 2010 11:11:29 GMT -5 John said:

It's a pity that so few Native americans react on this forum !!!!. There have been only 2 posts and 182 views. Do you have an explanation for that ?.

Dear ftpeckpabaksa, it bothers me that you think that someone who is non-Native, or is part Native ( look's White ), is making a mockery of the Native-American ways. I do not believe this is the case. I think that they are honest, and have a good heart. If we believe this, then they should be commended. It can only bring our races closer together. I believe all cultures have something to offer the world. I would like to say that beyond our cultures, we are all human beings.
The Native-Americans certainly has many great and beautiful teachings. If I were a Native-American I would be proud of it !!!!.

Best regards
John Groeneveld
The Netherlands
Europe
www.plainsindians.nl

Hello. I forgot I responded to this. But, I read it. That is a very good question to ask. Why so many views and not enough replies. It is not my site, and from what I see on the site here it is mainly to discuss the tribal histories, pictures, and even geneology info. But valid point. I don't represent all Native Americans. I won't put down that, I am the keeper of my Tribe's history. But I am Native. Those were just my views on cultural theft.

I did like the change of attitude. It made me laugh. Like night and day. LOL. But, it is good to come forward and ask. That is always a good thing. There was a good response after yours. Even an analogy. However, on that point. I do agree that many people are facinated by other cultures. Its good to learn, take an active interest. I do agree that everyone can learn from each other.

As Natives we do accept the world we live in. Our situation is, We walk two roads. But, our way of life is still alive. We have talented Natives who do art work etc. If a Native were asked to do a sculptor of a Christian symbol I am sure they would. Use their artistic talents. Because they were asked. A Native can even do one because he follows that way. Because that way was brought to us. Native people, I am Dakota, I do know our people were never missionaries. We never took our word to other's in place of their own.

With regards to that, all you have to do is remember Sitting Bull's words when he said that If the creator had wanted him to be a white man he would have made him so. That is the feeling that I, along with many others. Feel today. Because, like Sitting Bull said, "It is not necessary for crows to be eagles."

[ladonna]

I for one did not tell you not to make your art
just to label your art as non-native the reason is
we have laws that protects Native American Arts and Crafts and if a non native makes art it must say they are non native and they can not refer to it as Native/indian/Native American art. it is fine.
There is a difference bewteen honoring and theft, some people mix the two up.
It is an honoring to learn about our people but is wrong to sell art that is label Native American but is not Native, if you do it for show or education you just have to tell people and put it on the website I am not Native and my art is not native. It is the way to follow the law.
Finally there are not alot of Native Historians on this site and most of our partners are not native here, It is a site for research and discussion of Native People. I am honored to among such fine historians as the people on this site

[John]

Hi Ladonna, thanks for telling me this.
Would you take a look for me onto my website www.plainsindians.nl. I have just updated my English homepage and all english shield pages with the new words:
" made and painted by John Groeneveld non-Native american "
" I am a non-Native american and my art is not native "
" all replicas you find on this website are not for sale ".

Is this correct ?.

Give me please your opinion?

John

[ladonna]

that is correct you could put that you honor the native people in your art work

[John]

Hi ftpeckpabaksa, I have read with interest what you have said !!! I am profoundly touched with regards to cultural theft. I am deeply indebted to you for your comments and criticisms.
I understand you don't represents all Native Americans, but you speaks for "your people" and I respect that Native Americans wants to protect their beautiful culture.
Of course, I despise too, how non-Natives commercialize Native traditions and certainly would be glad to see them protected. Therefor I updated my website ( see message to this board from John to Ladonna, Yesterday at 3:40pm ).

Thanks again,
John Groeneveld
The Netherlands
Europe

[John]

Hi Ladonna, thank you for your time and advice, and also for your help into this very important issue.

I am most grateful,
John Groeneveld
The Netherlands
Europe

[Dietmar]

John,

I have been away some time, so welcome to these boards. I think it was kind of courageous to question your own work here.

I like the replies we had so far and I encourage all NDN members or visitors to rap on our knuckles and be critical of the stuff that is presented here at our boards. I´m sure there is always something that can be improved and despite good intentions we can make mistakes in discussing Indian History and culture.

Best regards

Dietmar

[John]

Dietmar, thanks for your friendly welcome. I compliment you on your wonderful website, I enjoy the old photographs and information.

My question had been the only way to find out about cultural theft. I believe, it is a very emotional, and difficult issue. But I am really glad I have gotten some response.

You're right about discussing Indian History and culture. Most of us try to do the best thing, and everyone makes mistakes. Mistakes are part of the learning curve of life.

Thanks again,
John