Bloody Knife, Arikara

[grahamew]

Confusing thimgs further... In the Bloody Knife photo, Custer is wearing what seems to be the same jacket and hat he does in the Illingworth photo of him with the dead bear, whereas he seems to have another buckskin jacket in the Pywell photo of him with the dead elk. In terms of his beard and hair, he seems more like the Custer in the Illingworth photo of the dead bear too. Nothing ironclad, obviously, because I'm sure he had a change of duds (and Bloody Knife is dressed differently in the Pywell photos and in the Illingworth one with the dead bear...)

[rodthomas]

Mar 10, 2023 3:13:48 GMT -5 grahamew said:

Confusing thimgs further... In the Bloody Knife photo, Custer is wearing what seems to be the same jacket and hat he does in the Illingworth photo of him with the dead bear, whereas he seems to have another buckskin jacket in the Pywell photo of him with the dead elk. In terms of his beard and hair, he seems more like the Custer in the Illingworth photo of the dead bear too. Nothing ironclad, obviously, because I'm sure he had a change of duds (and Bloody Knife is dressed differently in the Pywell photos and in the Illingworth one with the dead bear...)

We know, I think, from both the Pywell collection and Custer's letters to Libby, that the elk was shot on the 1873 expedition. So that the hat and jacket in the bear photo and in the photo with Bloody Knife and the other men and in the photo of the bear kill, and we know, I think, from records that the bear was killed on the 1874 expedition that both the bear kill and the tent photo were taken on the same expedition - in 1874 by Illingworth.

Now, about that pesky Northern Pacific Railroad logo on the tent. We know, I think from records, that the tent was a gift in 1873. Why throw it away if it was still serviceable? Why not save it for another adventure in 1874? And I think that is a likely answer although conclusively in answering our quest.

Oh, would you go on an expedition with only one hat and jacket?

We have all the reasons to call it a Illingworth but the hunt is still on.

All best for the coming Spring!

[grahamew]

You too, Ron.

[rodthomas]

good morning all and hope all is well...so, three Colt .45 Single Shot Army Model 1873 pistols are visible held by Bloody Knife and the other two Arikara scouts (thought to be Goose and Little Sioux). Research shows these weapons, approved for use in the Army, were not issued until 1874. We continue to read diaries, manufacturing records, etc., attempting to pin down information indicating Custer himself ordered 15 of these pistols with nickel plating vice the normal "blueing" and these particular weapons were received at Fort Abraham Lincoln just before the 1874 expedition left. One source claims Custer delayed the start by a day waiting for them to arrive. Yes, the tent logo is still visible from the previous year's expedition and my experience with modern day army tentage is marking such as these don't fade easily.

Please note that while our belief that it is an Illingworth exposure taken in 1874, we continue to search for as close to absolute evidence as possible. Until yesterday I was looking for "the stereograph" but based on additional input from Paul Horsted, this exposure was most likely a single plate shot. Paul also said the copy in the Elizabeth Custer Collection at the Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument is an original print and it is on it that he thinks no stereograph was made.

All best and stay well!

[rodthomas]

Mar 9, 2023 17:22:31 GMT -5 rodthomas said:

Mar 9, 2023 16:56:59 GMT -5 grahamew said:

Hi

Wouldn't the NPRR on the tent mean it was taken during the Northern Pacififc Rail Road survey?

You would think right? Custer recorded that his friend and USMA classmate then on the NPRR board, gave him the tent. that's the very reason I've always dated it 1873. but, a closer look at the pistols show Colts that were not issued nor sold until 1874. Soooo....Illingworth or Pyrell? Evidence for either attribution. Lee and I are digging deep on this one. Pywell also took bunches of photos that were not part of the "official" Army contract. Crazy. All best!

I believe it safe to conclude the photograph is by Illingworth, 1874 Black Hills Expedition. John Doerner, former Chief of Interpretation at the battlefield said people in the photograph were identified by Rhoda Starr Old Scouts Society of White Shield, ND, who identified the Indian Scouts beside her relative Bloody Knife. L-R Bloody Knife, John Burkman (Also thought to be Louis Agard, guide) Lt. Col. G.A. Custer, Private Goose, and Private Little Sioux. . Also believe it safe to conclude the person standing behind Custer is Pvt John Burkman when comparing the attached photo of Burkman provided by Doerner. Note the beard is essentially unchanged. Lastly, the Indian Scouts are armed with the newly issued M1873 Colt Revolvers just received earlier on 1 July 1874 at Ft. Abraham Lincoln (along with the new M1873 Springfield Carbines issued to the 7th Cavalry). Custer delayed the departure to the Black Hills to arm his command with these latest issue arms. We thank John Doerner for first his wonderful service to both sides of the story of the Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument. John was instrumental in the fallen warrior markers now displayed around the battle grounds marking where they fell. Lastly, thanks for his keeping this and loads other information about the people and the event at his fingertips.

I also want to thank Lee Noyes and Jim Brust as we teamed up to get to the bottom of just who did take this photo and when.

All best everyone...

[grahamew]

Excellent, Rod.

[rodthomas]

So, update and sorry for late posting. photograph by Illingworth 1874. Pistols held by Bloody knife, Goose, and Little Sioux were approved for Army use fall 1873. Issued in spring 1874. All three are stainless steel covered as ordered by Custer for gifts. So, it was Bloody knife. all best...Rod...

[allenc]

Maybe nickel plaiting on the pistol?

[allenc]

Maybe nickel plaiting on the pistol?

[rodthomas]

Allen, thanks...just saw where I said stainless steel...do not ask me where that came from, its hot... and yes, nickel plated. :-)