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Post by Dietmar on Jun 25, 2008 11:02:55 GMT -5
I found this photograph on SIRIS. Smithsonian states it shows Bloody Knife, but I´m not sure about this. Any opinion? Arikara man, Bloody Knife and Mr De Frane (by anonymous photographer) Copy from print furnished by Mrs Frances De Frane, Dawson, Nebraska. A picture also appears in "The Fighting Norths and Pawnee Scouts," by Robert Bruce (paper bound booklet in Bureau of American Ethnology Library, page 28.) Born with the Hunkpapas, [N.D.]. His father was a Hunkpapa Sioux, his mother an Arikara. He became a famous warrior and chief with his mother's tribe and served with Custer in the Black Hills in 1876. [1874 ?] Was killed while with Reno on the day of the Custer massacre. See biography in Handbook of American Indians by G.B.G. (includes error re the Hunkpapa Reservation. Bloody Knife was born before the Reservation was established. Mrs Frances De Frane's letter of 11-21-28 states that this picture was "taken with my husband when he was a soldier at Fort Helena...sometime before 1876 when Bloody Knife was killed...My husband is wearing a fox skin cap made and given him by Bloody Knife's sister."
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Post by grahamew on Jun 25, 2008 11:53:15 GMT -5
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Post by pohanka on Jun 27, 2008 20:13:47 GMT -5
The one thing I'm certain about is that I'm not certain. However, if I were forced to make a commitment I would say they all (pictures) are Bloody Knife!
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Post by Dietmar on Jun 28, 2008 13:56:29 GMT -5
My first thought was: no, he isn´t. He appears younger than the man in the other photos. But the text of Mrs De Frane made me think. But I still am not sure. There are other photographs of Arikara scouts with a saber and similar dresses around that period. So he could at least be an Arikara.
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Post by pohanka on Jul 6, 2008 19:29:43 GMT -5
What impressed me are the eyes that possess such heavy lids. They appear to be so distinctive and identical regardless of the age of the subject pictured in the photos. Certainly not conclusive evidence but, nevertheless, noteworthy.
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Post by dT on May 14, 2014 15:35:13 GMT -5
photos from Dietmar and grahamnew ... I think its the same man! I cant swear to his name or identity, but personally just comparing the two pix - I think there is a high chance you are looking at the same individual.
dT
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Post by rodthomas on Mar 7, 2023 19:39:12 GMT -5
I found this photograph on SIRIS. Smithsonian states it shows Bloody Knife, but I´m not sure about this. Any opinion? Arikara man, Bloody Knife and Mr De Frane (by anonymous photographer) Copy from print furnished by Mrs Frances De Frane, Dawson, Nebraska. A picture also appears in "The Fighting Norths and Pawnee Scouts," by Robert Bruce (paper bound booklet in Bureau of American Ethnology Library, page 28.) Born with the Hunkpapas, [N.D.]. His father was a Hunkpapa Sioux, his mother an Arikara. He became a famous warrior and chief with his mother's tribe and served with Custer in the Black Hills in 1876. [1874 ?] Was killed while with Reno on the day of the Custer massacre. See biography in Handbook of American Indians by G.B.G. (includes error re the Hunkpapa Reservation. Bloody Knife was born before the Reservation was established. Mrs Frances De Frane's letter of 11-21-28 states that this picture was "taken with my husband when he was a soldier at Fort Helena...sometime before 1876 when Bloody Knife was killed...My husband is wearing a fox skin cap made and given him by Bloody Knife's sister." Dietmar, good afternoon and hope all is well. Sorry but am researching an image taken either by Pywell in 1873 or Illingworth in 1874. I have equal substantiation of each meaning I have no substantiation for either from the records I've been able to locate or folks have provided me. The photograph of the four men - Custer in a camp seat, Bloody Knife, then a white man, then a scout, and kneeling facing those three, another scout. I've seen that kneeling individual identified as "Little Sioux." The man in the photo with De Frane looks like a match. Any help is appreciated...on both. Thanks Dietmar and all best...Rod
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Post by gregor on Mar 9, 2023 4:47:52 GMT -5
I found this photograph on SIRIS. Smithsonian states it shows Bloody Knife, but I´m not sure about this. Any opinion? Arikara man, Bloody Knife and Mr De Frane (by anonymous photographer) Copy from print furnished by Mrs Frances De Frane, Dawson, Nebraska. A picture also appears in "The Fighting Norths and Pawnee Scouts," by Robert Bruce (paper bound booklet in Bureau of American Ethnology Library, page 28.) Born with the Hunkpapas, [N.D.]. His father was a Hunkpapa Sioux, his mother an Arikara. He became a famous warrior and chief with his mother's tribe and served with Custer in the Black Hills in 1876. [1874 ?] Was killed while with Reno on the day of the Custer massacre. See biography in Handbook of American Indians by G.B.G. (includes error re the Hunkpapa Reservation. Bloody Knife was born before the Reservation was established. Mrs Frances De Frane's letter of 11-21-28 states that this picture was "taken with my husband when he was a soldier at Fort Helena...sometime before 1876 when Bloody Knife was killed...My husband is wearing a fox skin cap made and given him by Bloody Knife's sister." Dietmar, good afternoon and hope all is well. Sorry but am researching an image taken either by Pywell in 1873 or Illingworth in 1874. I have equal substantiation of each meaning I have no substantiation for either from the records I've been able to locate or folks have provided me. The photograph of the four men - Custer in a camp seat, Bloody Knife, then a white man, then a scout, and kneeling facing those three, another scout. I've seen that kneeling individual identified as "Little Sioux." The man in the photo with De Frane looks like a match. Any help is appreciated...on both. Thanks Dietmar and all best...Rod Hi, you are looking for this one, or? It should be an Illingworth of August 1874. All the best Gregor
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Post by grahamew on Mar 9, 2023 5:29:41 GMT -5
I think the man kneeling (and the man with De Frane) is Little Sioux as well.
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Post by rodthomas on Mar 9, 2023 13:51:33 GMT -5
gregor, thanks...that is the image being researched. the image of who I think is Little Sioux is with a person identified as "Mr. De Frane." Two people in the image and it has small holes in it. The caption says "Bloody Knife" but that is not him. Thanks... Attachments:
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Post by rodthomas on Mar 9, 2023 13:57:05 GMT -5
The reason I'm researching along with Lee Noyes is that I have had this identified for twenty years as by Pywell on the 1873 Yellowstone Expedition. Lee has had it for the same timeframe as by Illingworth on the 1874 Black Hills expedition. Our research so far has shown equal attribution to either photographer. As far as I know, this and the photo with De Frane are the only images of Little Sioux. I'm trying to locate as many photos of each of the men in the tent photo to help with identification. It was recently published in a Custer buff group newsletter conjecturing that the upright individual behind Custer was Curley the Crow scout. I kid you not.
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Post by grahamew on Mar 9, 2023 15:20:12 GMT -5
Isn't it Goose standing behind Custer? Have to admit, I've only ever seen this attributed to Illingworth, but having just looked through the Illingworth photos in Custer's Prelude to Glory - it's not there, nor is it listed on the back of his stereo cards. And... the printed text on the tent behind the group says NPRR, so... 1873 and a Pywell image.
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Post by rodthomas on Mar 9, 2023 16:06:27 GMT -5
Isn't it Goose standing behind Custer? Have to admit, I've only ever seen this attributed to Illingworth, but having just looked through the Illingworth photos in Custer's Prelude to Glory - it's not there, nor is it listed on the back of his stereo cards. And... the printed text on the tent behind the group says NPRR, so... 1873 and a Pywell image. Thanks and I've always had him identified as Goose. Others apparently think he is Long Soldier also in a Goff photo from Fort Lincoln. He's on the porch. I've seen all the Illingworth images at South Dakota State Historical Society collection, supposedly all from the Black Hills expedition. I learned yesterday that along with the "official" expedition photos, Illingworth took other photos and had them for sale. It is not listed on anything in the jSDSHS records. I've seen almost all the Pywell images from the National Archives and not in those either! More to follow! Attachments:
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Post by grahamew on Mar 9, 2023 16:56:59 GMT -5
Hi
Wouldn't the NPRR on the tent mean it was taken during the Northern Pacififc Rail Road survey?
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Post by rodthomas on Mar 9, 2023 17:22:31 GMT -5
Hi Wouldn't the NPRR on the tent mean it was taken during the Northern Pacififc Rail Road survey? You would think right? Custer recorded that his friend and USMA classmate then on the NPRR board, gave him the tent. that's the very reason I've always dated it 1873. but, a closer look at the pistols show Colts that were not issued nor sold until 1874. Soooo....Illingworth or Pyrell? Evidence for either attribution. Lee and I are digging deep on this one. Pywell also took bunches of photos that were not part of the "official" Army contract. Crazy. All best!
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