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Post by grahamew on Sept 9, 2023 18:16:47 GMT -5
 Spotted Horn Bull and his wife, Pretty White Buffalo  |
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Post by glenbow on Sept 11, 2023 8:42:56 GMT -5
Do you happen know who the photographer was, and what year the photo was taken?
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Post by Historian on Sept 11, 2023 13:19:25 GMT -5
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Post by grahamew on Sept 12, 2023 2:05:03 GMT -5
Do you happen know who the photographer was, and what year the photo was taken? Sorry. No idea, but I wonder if it was taken when the two were part of the Sitting Bull Combination, so 1884 |
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Post by gregor on Sept 16, 2023 7:37:32 GMT -5
Some Thoughts on Spotted Horn Bull I initially assumed that the photo of Spotted-Horn-Bull and his wife Good-White-Buffalo-Cow-Woman (a cousin of Sitting Bull) was taken during the so-called “Col. Allen’s Sitting Bull Combination” tour, in which the Spotted Horn Bulls took part. The Combination Tour took place from mid-September 1884 to early November 1884 (not a great success!). However, while looking through my photos, I came across the Sitting Bull family photo, which also shows Sitting Bull's mother. In this photo you can see the same carpet as in the Spotted Horn Bull’s photos.   Spotted Horn Bull was not among the 172 Sitting Bull followers deported to Fort Randall in September 1881. McLaughlin's Annuity List from December 1881 shows that Spotted Horn Bull was listed in Bears Hat's Band at that time (No. 623). The photos (Spotted Horn Bull & Sitting Bull family) therefore cannot have been taken at Fort Randall. They were probably not taken until Sitting Bull's return to Fort Yates/Standing Rock in May 1883. Sitting Bull's mother died in 1884 (the exact date is not known). I'm assuming SB wouldn't have toured while his mother was getting ready to cross over to the other side. Maybe late 1883 or early 1884.
The photos were therefore probably taken between May 1883 and summer 1884. Does anyone have any idea who the photographer was or could be? Who was at Fort Yates at this time? Or maybe a traveling photographer?
Gregor |
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Post by kingsleybray on Sept 16, 2023 12:28:05 GMT -5
Spotted Horn Bull belonged to the Talonapin (Raw Meat Necklace) tiyospaye of Hunkpapa, as did Bear's Hat. I think they were the largest of the non-treaty Hunkpapa tiyospaye in the 1870s and 80s.
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Post by Californian on Sept 16, 2023 12:45:35 GMT -5
hi Gregor, that's a great find and hopefully, come time, will help to identify the photographer. I thought that the image was taken around 1882/1883 and possibly by J.N. Templeman who had a studio in the town of Miller about 120 miles north of Fort Randall. Templeman died in 1890. As far as I know there are two images, slightly different from one another. Some help dating the image is Her-Many-Horses' son, Courting-a-Woman (aka Stands-with-Woman) who was born around 1881, in the image he looks to be about 2 years old. Oddly, and given Sitting Bull's great fame, one would have thought that these images would have been widely plagiarized by other photographers. Perhaps if the photographer was Templeman, and given his early death in 1890 there was no means for the negative to be used by others. Of course this is all is merely speculation on my part.
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Post by grahamew on Sept 16, 2023 16:16:43 GMT -5
Some Thoughts on Spotted Horn Bull I initially assumed that the photo of Spotted-Horn-Bull and his wife Good-White-Buffalo-Cow-Woman (a cousin of Sitting Bull) was taken during the so-called “Col. Allen’s Sitting Bull Combination” tour, in which the Spotted Horn Bulls took part. The Combination Tour took place from mid-September 1884 to early November 1884 (not a great success!). However, while looking through my photos, I came across the Sitting Bull family photo, which also shows Sitting Bull's mother. In this photo you can see the same carpet as in the Spotted Horn Bull’s photos. Spotted Horn Bull was not among the 172 Sitting Bull followers deported to Fort Randall in September 1881. McLaughlin's Annuity List from December 1881 shows that Spotted Horn Bull was listed in Bears Hat's Band at that time (No. 623). The photos (Spotted Horn Bull & Sitting Bull family) therefore cannot have been taken at Fort Randall. They were probably not taken until Sitting Bull's return to Fort Yates/Standing Rock in May 1883. Sitting Bull's mother died in 1884 (the exact date is not known). I'm assuming SB wouldn't have toured while his mother was getting ready to cross over to the other side. Maybe late 1883 or early 1884.
The photos were therefore probably taken between May 1883 and summer 1884. Does anyone have any idea who the photographer was or could be? Who was at Fort Yates at this time? Or maybe a traveling photographer?
Gregor Interesting, because Sitting Bull still looks full-faced, unlike the Barry (and Scott/alleged Kelly) photos where he looks worn and haggard. Really goood observation about the carpet. Until now, I'd thought the Sitting Bull and family photo taken after Fort Randall en route to Standing Rock |
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Post by Dietmar on Sept 16, 2023 17:11:03 GMT -5
This alternative shot of Sitting Bull`s family was either taken or published by A. T. Sherwood of Mandan, now North Dakota. As Dakota Territory was split in 1889, this photographed obviously was published at least before 1890:   So, were the photos of Sitting Bull and Spotted Horn Bull taken in Mandan? |
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Post by Californian on Sept 16, 2023 17:32:49 GMT -5
thanks for sharing this Dietmar. This looks to me an image off an image (i.e. plagiarized) - one can tell by the horizontal band at the bottom. As Grahame stated, Sitting Bull looks youthful in these two images, similarly as the one by Cross taken at Fort Randall sitting outside his tipi with Sally Battles. I still think that it probably was taken right around 1882 or more likely 1883, maybe it was R.L. Kelly, the prisoners would have passed by Pierre enroute to Standing Rock. There are not many original prints of this two images around, I believe Library at Westpoint has prints made by a photographer in San Francisco, but not sure of this anymore.
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Post by gregor on Sept 17, 2023 1:30:42 GMT -5
Californian, I think you had these in mind   A photographer of Stockton Cal. - name? |
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Post by grahamew on Sept 17, 2023 4:14:23 GMT -5
There are other prints of Sitting Bull's people made by this Californian photographer, J. Pitcher Spooner: amertribes.proboards.com/thread/3397/steps-seeskoomkee-bannock-shoshone-perceI have no idea who the original photographer is. The only photos I've seen with this backdrop are those in the Steps thread. They don't match the backdrop Kelly uses for Spotted Eagle. Back to this photo. Suppose it could be a Kelly, but we're told that Sitting Bull was wearing a white shirt when he made that Pierre visit and, again, the backdrop doesn't match that of the few 'early' Kelly photos I've seen. |
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Post by frenchman on Sept 18, 2023 6:58:16 GMT -5
Greetings from France
Is Bear's Hat the same as Bear's Cap aka Bear's Head aka Bear's War Bonnet ?
Thank for answer !
Best Regards
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peter
Junior Member
Posts: 98 
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Post by peter on Sept 18, 2023 11:45:14 GMT -5
This alternative shot of Sitting Bull`s family was either taken or published by A. T. Sherwood of Mandan, now North Dakota. As Dakota Territory was split in 1889, this photographed obviously was published at least before 1890: So, were the photos of Sitting Bull and Spotted Horn Bull taken in Mandan? |
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peter
Junior Member
Posts: 98
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Post by peter on Sept 18, 2023 11:50:40 GMT -5
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