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Post by chicheman on Feb 3, 2013 8:26:28 GMT -5
Hello,
I would like to ask our Apache members and Apache experts we have here, about the term the Apaches used for white man / white people.
In the book "Apache Voices - Their stories of survival as told to Eve Ball", by Sherry Robinson, I found some note on the term "White Eyes". A Lipan Apache, Philemon Venego, was telling that, when his people first saw whites, what impressed them most was the white in their eyes. He said, "we don´t have that; our eyes are coffee-colored where yours are white. That is how you got your name White Eyes ".
Somewhere in the net I found that Chiricahuas rather call whites by the term "Gray Eyes". Though don´t know if that is true or not.
Probably not all Apache groups or bands may use the same term, I could imagine.
Perhaps some here may want give an explanation on that subject. Thanks a lot already.
Greetings from Germany,
chicheman
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Post by penjady on Feb 6, 2013 14:51:45 GMT -5
N'daa is a common term for a white person nowadays. It literally means Eye. No reference to eye color.
The Chiricahua say it.. daadatlijende... Blue/green eye people. And they also say.. indaaligande... White skinned people.
I think the term White Eyes is a general term used by Europeans from all native tribes. Maybe some tribes do call them that. I dont know.
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Post by chicheman on Feb 6, 2013 17:47:52 GMT -5
Thank you Penjady, for your explanation, I appreciate much what you share and to learn about that.
Hi from Germany,
chicheman
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Post by pullingup on Feb 21, 2013 16:09:20 GMT -5
'Indaa ³igá'í is loosely translated as "white man" in Chiricahua Apache language. ³igá'í literally translates as "that which is, or they who are white or who are pale colored". £igá' means "it is white" or it can be translated as "it is pale colored". the í on the end usually translates as "the one that is", but in the context of human beings, can mean "the group who are". The term 'indaa can be interpreted as either of two different words The first word is often translated as "enemy" although it might be better translated as "non-Apache". Someone could be identified as 'indaa without necessarily being an enemy in the English sense of the word. The second word that might be translated as "eyes", but rather oddly it has an indefinite possessor. Body parts must be owned in Apache languages, and cannot exist without an owner, even if the owner is not known. You cannot say -ndaa without a possessive pronoun in front - shindaa, my eye; nindaa, your eye; bindaa, his or her eye; indaa, someones' eye. An appropriate translation of the term 'Indaa ³igáí could be "white eyes" or "pale eyes", but the term is generally understood to mean "white man" and it retains that same meaning when it is shortened to just "'Indaa". The term ‘Indaa di³hi³í is usually translated to mean "black man" but more specifically means black white man. In old western novels, the term 'Indaa ³igáí is often written as pinda-lick-o-yi or some similarly silly rendition. The term for grey is ³ibá. It does not show up as any part of any terms for white people. The word for grey does show up in the Chiricahua name for General Crook. The term for chief, leader, or boss, is nant'añ and when specified as the one who is grey, the term is Nant’añ ³ibáñ, which can be translated as "grey chief". Western novels seem to want to translate the term as "grey wolf", but the word for wolf is not part of the name.
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Post by pullingup on Feb 21, 2013 16:13:50 GMT -5
Because the message board does not want to render the letters properly, the ³ is a small letter L with a slash through it and the £ is a big letter L with a slash through it. Also the ñ is a small letter n with an accent mark over it.
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Post by chicheman on Feb 22, 2013 12:27:13 GMT -5
Hi pullingup,
also many thanks to you for your information on my question, very interesting how you explain thru Apache Language. Good to learn about this misinformation on Gen. Crook / nant´an iban (grey chief). I too always thought the Apaches called him "grey wolf". Thanks to both of you, pullingup and penjady.
Chicheman
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Post by dT on Feb 22, 2013 13:44:33 GMT -5
I will add a small something. But I must explain that I am Ndaa myself. I cannot say that I am bothered by this term ... I have been called much worse. HAHAHA!!
I was reading through some old accounts, including the writings of Charles Gatewood who served under Crook. Gatewood was the person sent to communicate with Goyokla (Geronimo) before his final surrender. In those old accounts, the word "Indah" also appears. It is transcribed by white men and white soldiers. But it is identical to the word that Penjady is mentioning above. Indah = N'daa. So this word has been in use by the Nde people fo a long, long time.
It would be interesting to know why the Nde people referred to Crook as "Gray Chief". But perhaps it was something practical. Maybe he just wore a gray coat a lot of the time??
dT
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Post by cinemo on Feb 24, 2013 4:29:47 GMT -5
Hi, dt,
General Crook was dubbed „ Grey Chief “ , because of his manner of dress and his peculiar whiskers.
Greetings from Germany - cinemo
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Post by dT on Feb 24, 2013 12:07:02 GMT -5
Thank you Cinemo. On an unrelated subject - but interesting - I am taking a closer look about how these famous people died. When you look at both white men and Apache, N'daa and Nde, it appears that the time of the Apache Wars took a heavy toll on the long-term health of all of the participants in the wars. I will write something on that subject soon.
I also did not realize, but Lt. Charles Gatewood was not in good health by the time he was sent to relay Miles' offer to Geronimo. In fact, both Miles and Gatewood believed that if he (Gatewood) had to spend several months looking for Geronimo in SW Arizona and northern Mexico - most likely Gatewood would have died. He simply did not have a strong enough body and constitution to withstand the rigors of that kind of travel at that time in his life. As it turned out, Gatewood's mission to talk to Geronimo was accomplished in a reasonably short time ... hence the events that played out subsequently.
dT
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Post by gregor on Mar 3, 2013 4:28:04 GMT -5
Today I saw the Movie "Reel Indians" about Hollywood's Indians. There was a scene with Charlie Hill, an Oneida-Mohawk stand-up Comedian. He also spoke of the White Eyes. Maybe it was a common Expression in Older days for the Whites.
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Post by gregor on Mar 3, 2013 4:32:51 GMT -5
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Post by cinemo on Aug 10, 2013 11:25:10 GMT -5
An explanation for the term „ White Eyes“ was given by Daklugie ( Eve Ball, 1988 / page 19 )
„White Eyes is not the exact meaning of our word for them; a more exact meaning would be Pale Eyes.The first white people our people saw looked very queer because Indians have no whites in their eyes; the part around the iris is more nearly coffee-colored. „
cinemo
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Post by Marekani76 on Sept 15, 2014 17:07:16 GMT -5
I wonder what terms the Apache have to differentiate between different groups like Mexicans, Zuni, Navajo, Anglo-Americans. Do the Apache have an equivalent term to Refer to the USA or Mexico as a whole?
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Post by kayitah on Sept 16, 2014 13:51:44 GMT -5
Thanks for posting Daklugie's interesting (but IMO not necessarily correct) explanation, cinemo.
I have never noticed any difference in the sclera of Native Americans (whether Apache or not). The original Apache term was probably "pale eyes", referring to the blue, gray, or green color of the irides common among immigrants from northern and western Europe.
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chi1
New Member
Posts: 39
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Post by chi1 on Oct 15, 2014 14:40:55 GMT -5
I wonder what terms the Apache have to differentiate between different groups like Mexicans, Zuni, Navajo, Anglo-Americans. Do the Apache have an equivalent term to Refer to the USA or Mexico as a whole? Small contribution: Mexicans were called Nakaye by Ndeh....spanish pronunciation. Also from Lutenant Britton Davis memories also mention how apache refer to white man as pindah-lickoyee
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