Facial recognition on CH and Crazy in the Lodge

[frank]

Hey, (long time no see)

As you have propably noticed I have sent people with their questions to this board every once in a while... (I hope that's been ok, since I've just thought that if someone in here can't answer to them then no one can ).

Now I go this email from one William Wessels and it was originally send to [e-mail]

William asked if I could post the content of the email on this board so here it is. I think you might find this interesting...

The whole email (copy/paste):

From: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail], [e-mail]
Subject: DIGITAL STUDY
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 13:58:29 GMT

Dear Sirs, I would like to suggest to the Nebraska state historical society that they use the military digital facial recognition program to establish in there pamphlet "Greasy Grass" may 1998 vol 14 If Fig. 2 "little Bat" 1870 and Fig. 3 "Crazy in the lodge" 1877 and Fig. 4 "Chak-ur-T-kee" REVERSED to match the others Fig's tintypes or indeed one and the same person. If proven this would give you 3 different photos "taken in Nebraska" , places, times and photographers all calming this same person to be Crazy Horse. This should give you the Proof needed that there is a photo of Crazy horse and put a face to this great warrior.. I would also like to suggest that they digitally examin S J Morrow's " Crazy in the Lodge" On how is hands were position to cover up hand cuffs and a rope there also appears to be writing under the #132 that may tell who the real photographer is.. Based on my limited technically and study I find they are indeed one in the same person and that the "Crazy in the lodge" photo was taken at camp Sherman on the 4 or 5 of Sept 1877 and probably by James H Hamililton. I can not find one thing in the photo " Crazy in the Lodge" from clothing, facial scars, back drop est. Plus the fact that he was hand cuff and tied for a PHOTO!!! that this is not the feared warrior Crazy Horse. Please let me know what you find out. William H Wessels 6/26/12

[Dietmar]

Heeeeyyy Frank,

good to hear from you. Hope all is well.

Thanks for sending people over here. We try our best ;-)


Now, I´m not sure what to do with this last message. I must admit I don´t have the Greasy Grass article he´s refering to. All I can say is that the three pictures he mentioned in my opinion surely don´t show Crazy Horse, if that is the question and if these are the ones I have seen before.

Perhaps another member knows the article?

Greetings to Finland

Dietmar

[frank]

Hey ho Dietmar!

Been real busy with work and life (daughter just turned 1 year old). But I'm hanging here on the background still . For some reason I am not able to answer or send any emails to that [e-mail] address. My email provider just keeps on telling me "couldn't contact the address or something like that...). So I wasn't even able to answer back at William. Maybe some of you could email him and ask for the article? Anyway take care everyone and keep up with the good work!!

[frank]

I got this email now from the same guy. Here it is copy/pasted:

Sirs, One of the reasons Ive suggest a digital study is Photos cant make a mistake, lie or have a agenda but give a moment in time that my give important clues. I think the maine focus should be on the back drop in Crazy In the Lodge by digital comparing its back drop to other back drops of all known photos at Fort Roberson and participatory native scouts at camp Sheridan during this time. Studying its canvas back drop for things like cuts ,stains, type of weave Est. you may then be able date the photo Crazy in the Lodge to a very small window "months". You then must ask could there be more than one person in those few month's that had the name Crazy "S J Morrow" wore those type of cloths "Mari Sandoz" called him his head warrior "Red Cloud" had a unique scar and power burns to face "numerous" and who was arrested during those few months that would be important enough to have a "un-staged photo" taken more like a mug shot with hand cuffs and tied with rope! Touch the Clouds who arrested Crazy Horse and held him in custody the night before his death was familiar with the photographer James H Hamilton camp Sheridan as he had is photo taken by him Fall of 1877 and who's back drop is like Crazy in the Lodge. If the Nebraska historical society has no interest in a digital study would you pass my corresponds on to PBS they may be interest. A reply would be appreciated. Sincerely William H Wessels 07/09/2012

[Dietmar]

Hi Frank,

mmh, I still have difficulties to understand what Mr. Wessels is trying to say, but perhaps it is my bad English. Prove what? That the photo of Crazy-in-the-Lodge shows Crazy Horse?

I think Ephriam had some good points when he stated earlier on these boards that no photographer was in the area around Fort Robinson at the time of Crazy Horse´s death.

More about Crazy-in-the-Lodge:

amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=brule1&action=display&thread=383


Crazy-in-the-Lodge by Stanley J. Morrow

Greetings
Dietmar

[kingsleybray]

The other point to make, Dietmar, is that all these early photographers were in business, selling the images they made. They printed up their catalogs of images, often on the back of their photographs. If one of them had a picture of Crazy Horse, the most famous Indian at the White River agencies in 1877, it would have been marketed big-time!, and we should still be getting copies coming up on auction sites.

It's unfortunate, but I think we have to conclude we have no portrait of the great man.

[frank]

Hey,

I got problem to understand what he is saying also... and/or why he is emailing this stuff to me and dont post them him self... the thing is that it is impossible for me to answer to his emails. They just bounce right back saying there is no such address. Anyway, the text is bit jiddish but I thought the message is interesting in its own Rasputinish manner so I forwarded the emails in here .

[Dietmar]

No problem Frank, you´re always welcome.

What about your dog, has he become big as a horse in the meantime? ;-)

[frank]

Thanks Dietmar.

Unfortunately my great friend Ukki past away year ago in august. Ukki had many illnesses and he even got one really tough hospital bacteria on his leg. In the end there was nothing we could do anymore so I had to let him go. It was a HUGE lost and I would have rather put down some random human than him but there was no choice... anyway, life goes on and Ukki gave me lots of good memories. Here is a pic of Ukki and me when he was still alive and kicking:


Now we have a new dog. She is only 1/15 of Ukki's size and still quite young, only 11 months old. But she is much healthier. Her name is Kola (in Lakota way of course). Here is a pic of her:

[grahamew]

Beautiful dog, Frank

[frank]

Thanks Grahamew. Good to hear from you after so long time. I've been busy with work and life. Got 1 year old daughter now and time seems to fly. I will be checking this board every once in a while though and hopefully I can someday return to build my own website too. Now I update it just a bit by bit once a month if even that.

[gregor]

Hi everybody,

this is what I have with regard to Crazy-in-the-Lodge:

Crazy-in-the-Lodge (born ca. 1830) was a blotahunka, a war leader, under Spotted Tail. With the exception of a few facts, is almost nothing known about him. In September 1867 he participated as one of the Brulé leaders in the negotiations with the Indian Peace Commission on the North Platte River. At this time he appears in the documents as "Crazy Lodge".

After the signing of the Fort Laramie Treaty in 1868, Crazy-in-the-Lodge went - along with Spotted Tail - on the reservations provided for the Brulé; first to the Whetstone Agency on the Missouri. The Whetstone Agency was moved several times, but kept its name until it was renamed to Spotted Tail Agency in 1874. In 1873/74 Crazy-in-the-Lodge is a leader of about 40 tepees, who received rations in the Whetstone Agency (?). In a report from 1875 to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs Agent Major E A Howard called Crazy-in-the-Lodge one of the "leading Indians ... benevolent and reliable." In 1875, he was said to be a member of a delegation to Washington - but this is not safe. The family situation of Crazy-in-the-lodge or his death date is unknown.

With regard to historic aspects Crazy-in-the-Lodge was a rather inconspicuous person. Significantly he became at best known with the above stereoscopy, which is frequently referred to as the "only picture" of the famous warrior Crazy Horse.
The photo was – most likely - taken either 1876 or 1877 by photographer S J Morrow, who attended during those years the Red Cloud and Spotted Tail agencies, photographing Lakota celebrities. This stereoscopy is the No. 132 of the Morrow Series from "Photographic Gems of the Great Northwest." The associated negative Morrow labeled with "Crazy-in-the-Lodge, head warrior under Spotted Tail."

Has someone additional information (on his family, his death date etc.)?

Toksha

Gregor

[frank]

Thanks Gregor. If its ok Ill use your reference on my website.

Here is the latest mr. Wessels emailed to me... I think Ill forward this more in here and then stop.

Here goes:

"Sirs, Thank you for help and information. I would like to say that I feel to much has be made of trying to identify individuals by there photo names. The photographers were not historians and named there photos so they would sell. Take the photos Chak-ur-t-kee and Crazy in the Lodge witch I believe to be the same person. "CHIEF" Chak-ur-t-kee is a staged photo that was used to make 'money " A photo made to sell and B H Gurnsey photographer did not take any other "pawnee " Photos thus its most likely a Photo name and not the person in the photo. In the photo Crazy in the Lodge photographer Morrow most likely named the photo after what Touch the Clouds said at Crazy Horse's death , as Touch the Clouds pulled the blanket over Crazy Horses face he said "that is the lodge of Crazy Horse". If your looking for a lost horse you follow its tracks and you well find it standing in them. These old Photos are like tracks, do a intense digital study and you may just find Crazy Horse in this case sitting in his and under arrest. Thanks William H Wessels"

[gregor]

Hi Frank,

I love your website. Of course you can use my little reference.

toksha

gregor

[frank]

Awesome, thanks man.
www.franksrealm.com/Indians/tribes/Sioux_Lakota/Brule/pages/brule-crazyinthelodge.htm