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Post by grahamew on Jul 22, 2008 2:10:07 GMT -5
Here's Jerome Greene's version of the lineup:
Sitting L-R: White Antelope, Bull Bear, Black Kettle, Neva, Notanee. Standing L-R: Bosse, Heap of Buffalo
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Post by Gary on Jul 22, 2008 14:29:00 GMT -5
The minutes of the Camp Weld Council, record that there were seven Indians present:
Black Kettle, White Antelope, Bull Bear, leader of Dog Soldiers, Neva (who is described as having been to Washington - a comment that is not attached to Black Kettle), Bosse, Heap of Buffalo and Na-ta-nee.
These same seven are referred to by Wynkoop as having attended the council in the evidence that he gave to the Congressional Inquiry on Sand Creek. It seems certain therefore that these must be the names of the Indians who attended.
There are two photographs of the Indians at the council. There are seven Indians in each and, as far as I can tell, they are the same people.
There is no mention of any other Indians attending the council and Wynkoop said that he brought the chiefs back with him.
The identification of the Indians is more problematic. As far as I am aware, the only photographs of Black Kettle are those taken at Camp Weld. There is a sketch of him, but I believe that it is based upon one of those photographs. There is therefore nothing to compare the images with. It has however been accepted for some time that he is the central figure in both photographs and enough people knew him to contradict that statement if it was wrong.
There are other photographs of White Antelope, Bull Bear and Neva. I believe therefore that they are correctly identified by Greene and others. I suspect that the identification of the other chiefs is speculative.
I agree that it is unlikely that Black Kettle went to Washington without his presence being recorded at any stage in either the official records or the press. Although Bent may have reported such a trip, he was writing to Hyde 40+ years after the event. I am also trying to find what his actual letters say, as there are sometimes differences between what he said and what is in the Hyde/Lottinville book.
It's an interesting topic though and the EWS article definitely provides food for thought.
Gary
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Post by charlie on Jul 23, 2008 5:56:11 GMT -5
Sorry men, but i insist...WHITE ANTELOPE is fourth (L to R) in the b/w photo and is first (L to R) in the colored photo. I'm sure. Make comparison with the famous image of 1851: there are him, Alights on the Cloud and Little Chief (often exchanged with Roman Nose). Can anyone to support my theory?
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Post by charlie on Jul 23, 2008 10:04:14 GMT -5
The photo is here: LBHA - Other Indians Tribes - Delegation of 1851/52
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Post by Dietmar on Jul 23, 2008 10:09:25 GMT -5
Hi Charlie,
yep, I know the 1851 photos, but I´m afraid I draw a different conclusion. For me White Antelope is the man sitting far left.
BTW, It´s raining here for days, I wish I were in Bella Italia right now!
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Post by Gary on Jul 26, 2008 6:02:05 GMT -5
Sorry Charlie
I'm sure that the Chief on trhe left is White Antelope.
Gary
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Post by charlie on Jul 28, 2008 9:58:49 GMT -5
I can't conceal my displeasure at my insistence. I always have seen labelled in wrong way, in several web-site, the "Camp Weld-1864" photo-group. I have seen reversed their positions, from here my mistake! Now, making comparison between the two pics, with concentration, i have realize. In all the 3 photos where him appears, WHITE ANTELOPE is always at the edge: twice at left, once at right. The Administrator and all Members forgive me!
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Post by Dietmar on Aug 1, 2008 5:29:06 GMT -5
... no problem. If we ever meet, you owe me a nice bottle of Italian red wine! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by charlie on Aug 4, 2008 11:35:05 GMT -5
Ok Dietmar: in this season, i exchange with pleasure my red wine with a fresh German red beer...
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Post by grahamew on Aug 18, 2008 5:41:09 GMT -5
a) a larger versioon of the chiefs entering Denver: b) I'm assuming this was done to accompany a newspaper article - makes me wonder if there isn't a third photo somewhere out there!
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Post by Gary on Aug 18, 2008 5:55:05 GMT -5
Grahamew,
I've not seen picture (b) before. Can you post a bigger version?
Gary
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Post by grahamew on Aug 18, 2008 6:59:44 GMT -5
Sorry, that was the size I found it. The fact that the attitudes of some of the men are entirely different to the existing photographs is what makes me think there must be (or must have been) a third photo.
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Post by grahamew on Aug 18, 2008 11:02:59 GMT -5
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Post by Gary on Aug 19, 2008 10:11:16 GMT -5
Thanks for that. I'm trying to work out who's whom. Some are obvious, some less so. It seems to be further support for there having been only seven chiefs.
Gary
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Post by charlie on Mar 23, 2009 9:53:47 GMT -5
At which band belonged BULL BEAR and his brother LEAN BEAR? I belive to the HEVHAITA'NIO (Hairy Men) of Southern Cheyenne, but i am not sure. WOLF CHIEF, that belonged at this band, was a direct witness at the killing of Lean Bear in 1864. He talk of this episode in George Hyde book "Life of G. Bent written from his letters".
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