The Oglala wife of Makes the Song and mother to Worm and grandmother to Crazy Horse, was she a blood sister to Smoke's Oglala wife ? Was that relationship between these women the "glue" in the Hunkpatila band ? That is, was that the reason why Crazy Horse/Worm/Makes the Song and Young Man Afraid of His Horse/Old Man Afraid of His Horse/Smoke were part of the Hunkpatila band ? What was her name ?
Post by kingsleybray on Nov 20, 2009 5:42:13 GMT -5
hreinn, I think you are on the right track by trying to understand the connections between these families. Connections certainly existed but the evidence of just what they were is unsatisfactory. But as LaDonna says, "Lakotas - we're all related; it's just a question of figuring out how!"
A couple of observations. A woman named simply "Crazy Horses Mother", age given as 90, is listed as part of the Northern Camp at Rosebud in the 1887 agency census. If she really was that age, we might think she is the mother of Worm rather than his son the famous Crazy Horse. In official Rosebud reports the father is usually called Old Man Crazy Horse. So this woman, unfortunately not identified by name, may have been the wife of Makes the Song.
A woman named Good Haired Otter was living in the Little Hawk household at Pine Ridge, in the 1891 census. She is identified as the mother of Little Hawk the elder, the younger brother (I presume half-brother, same father, different mother) of Worm. Her age is given as 79, so born about 1812.
Building on what Wendyll Smoke has posted on this website, I have wondered if Man Afraid of His Horse I (born ca. 1750, identified with Kuhinyan tiyoshpaye, part of what would become the Kiyuksa band of Oglalas), and Parts of Body (born frame 1750-75, Sihasapa Lakota, father of Old Smoke [ca. 1790s-1864]), married daughters of Standing Bull I (floruit 1775, family identified with Hunkpatila tiyoshpaye of Oglalas).
In the 19th century one large extended family group (tiwahe) within the Hunkpatila band was called Kapozha. Old Man Afraid of His Horse was part of this tiwahe, according to William Powers. Red Feather (Crazy Horse's brother-in-law) told Fr Buechel that in his day Worm was the headman of the Kapozha. So the Man Afraids and Crazy Horse families were very closely associated, certainly before the 1866-71 frame, when contention over war or peace with the Americans, the treaty, reservation, etc. broke up the old Hunkpatila band.
Several statements exist asserting some connection between the Crazy Horse and Smoke families, but I'm not aware of any details. All thoughts welcome!
Kingsley: Thanks for a detailed reply as always. I agree that it is likely that this 90 years old woman in the year 1887 (born 1796-1797) was the wife of Makes the Songs and therefore Crazy Horse's Oglala grandmother.
Crazy Horse's Oglala grandmother almost "has to be" related to the Smoke family ! And more specifically to one of Smoke's wife. When you consider together the formation of thiyóšpaye (thiyosphaye) in the Lakhota society and family trees information, there is no other choice. You can rule out all other possibilities.
As can be seen by the following references in the literature, the people in each thiyóšpaye were related: 1. "The tiyospaye, or lodge group, was the basic building block of society. A cluster of families, related by blood and marriage, the tiyospaye was typically fifty or a hundred people strong." [K.M. Bray; Crazy Horse - A Lakota Life, page 7] 2. "Sioux society had its foundation in small, close-knit family hunting groups." "This group, the core of the Sioux society, was known as the "tiyospe"." [R.B. Hassrick; The Sioux, page 2] 3. "According to DeMallie (1976:81), a single Tiyospaye was composed of 5 to 20 related families." [G. Gibbon; The Sioux - The Dakota and Lakota Nations, page 247] 4. "Each band, or tiyospaye, was ordinarily comprised of ten or more bilaterally extended families" [R.W. Larson; Red Cloud - The Warrior Statesman of the Lakota Sioux, page 35]
But according to the known combined information about Crazy Horse's and Smoke's family trees, see the following: 1. K.M. Bray; Crazy Horse - A Lakota Life 2. R.G. Hardorff; The Death of Crazy Horse 3. Information on DVDs from the Clown family; The Authorized Biography of Crazy Horse and His Family from Reel Contact 4. Information from Wendyll Smoke in the thread amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=oglala1&action=display&thread=239&page=2 There is no known link between Crazy Horse's and Smoke's families. But it is a fact that they lived together and formed the Hunkpatila thiyóšpaye. Not only did these families form the Hunkpatila thiyóšpaye for many years, but some of these years were heavily strained between war vs. peace attitude regarding the white people and finaly led to a split of the thiyóšpaye. That these families stayed together for such a long time during difficult times, suggest a close family ties.
So Crazy Horse's Oglala grandmother almost "has to be" related to one of Smoke's wife. There is no one else in the Crazy Horse's family who could be related to the Smoke family. Therefore it seems to be almost a question of a confirmation and a bringing up the name of these 2 women. That is Crazy Horse's Oglala grandmother and a woman in the Smoke family (most likely Smoke's Oglala wife).
To complicate matter even more. I was thinking about how the Yellow Eagle family and Standing Bull family in the Hunkpatila thiyóšpaye were related to Crazy Horse. Whether it could be through the Oglala grandmother of Crazy Horse ? Perhaps to the wife of Yellow Eagle and/or wife of Standing Bull ? Is it known how Crazy Horse is related to Yellow Eagle and Standing Bull ?
Kingsley: I think it is very likely to be correct what you have been thinking about regarding the connection between Parts of Body (father of Old Smoke) and the daughter of Standing Bull I.
It turns out it was Crazy Horse‘s maternal grandmother who was related to Smoke, but not Crazy Horse‘s paternal grandmother [1, 2].
Crazy Horse's maternal grandmother White Cow Woman (aka Iron Cane) was not related to one of Smoke‘s wife. White Cow Woman (aka Iron Cane) was directly related to Smoke. She was Smoke‘s sister by blood.
The 3 siblings: 1. White Cow Woman (aka Iron Cane) = Crazy Horse‘s grandmother 2. Smoke (aka Slow Bull) = (Old) Man Afraid of His Horse‘s father 3. Walks As She Thinks = Red Cloud‘s mother were raised up in the Hunkpatila camp by their parents Body Parts (Blackfeet Lakota) and Looking Walker Woman (Hunkpatila Lakota).
That was one of the "glue" in the Hunkpatila band (thiyóšpaye) in Crazy Horse‘s times.
Still today, almost nothing is known to non-Lakotas about Crazy Horse‘s paternal grandmother, who I referred above as Crazy Horse's Oglala grandmother.
Post by miller7513 on Sept 1, 2011 10:02:55 GMT -5
Re: Crazy Horse's Oglala grandmother Speaking of connections with-in this family- Imagine this; the relation-ship between- 1. Waglula Worm Kills At Night Crazy Horse 2. Daughter-Pretty Feather Woman-husband Long Whirlwind 3. Son-Eagle Elk-wife Pity Them 4. Daughter-Mary Walks With Pipe-husbands Alexander Yellow Wolf & Bad Hair 5. Alexander Yellow Wolf-wives (4 above) & Looks At Her 6. Looks At Her-husbands (5 above) & Geoffrey Chips 7. Geoffrey Chips-wives (6 above) & Comes Back Hard 8. Comes Back Hard-husbands (7 above) & John Long Commander 9. John Long Commander-wives (8 above) & Carrie Comes Again 10. Carrie Comes Again-husbands (9 above) & Wilson Knee 11. Yellow Wolf-(father of #5 Alexander) wife an unknown & Fat Ticket 12. Daughter-Alice Yellow Wolf-husband-Jasper Scout 13. Jasper Scout-wives (12 above) & Mary Red Bear 14. Mary Red Bear-husbands-(13 above) Reuben Star & Iron Scout 15. Reuben Star-wives (14 above) Jennie Comes Last & Julia 16. Jennie Comes Last-husbands (15 above) an unknown, Samuel Pine Bird, Kills First & Yellow Eyes 17. Kills First-wives (16 above) & Katie High Wolf 18. Wilson Knee husband of #10 and Alice High Bear All but #1 is listed in the census LaDeane
Finally we have the name of the woman who this thread is about. Her name was Red Kettle . Red Kettle was a wife of Makes the Song [1, 2] & mother to Worm  & paternal grandmother to Crazy Horse 3 . Red Kettle was born in 1796 or 1797 and was alive in 1887, at the high age of 90 years . Red Kettle outlived her grandson Crazy Horse 3 by at least 10 years.
It would be interesting to know if: 1. Red Kettle was in the camp at Little Big Horn in the summer 1876 2. Red Kettle stayed with the Northern faction during the harsh winter 1876-1877 3. Red Kettle came in with Crazy Horse in the spring 1877 4. Red Kettle went to Canada in 1877 or later
We don't know yet whether Red Kettle was born as an Oglala Lakota. But she lived with her husband Makes the Song in an Oglala camp. It would be interesting to know who were Red Kettle's relatives. It would also be interesting to know how old Red Kettle got (how old she was when she died).