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Post by grahamew on Apr 20, 2015 5:09:00 GMT -5
I remain to be convinced.
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Post by cinemo on Apr 20, 2015 14:29:37 GMT -5
Hello Claudio,
I think, this photograph shows not Keintpoos( Captain Jack )
cinemo
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Post by chicheman on Apr 20, 2015 15:15:08 GMT -5
Regarding traditional Modoc clothing I found this in Indians of North America,Chelsea House Publishers "The Modoc" by Odie B.Faulk and Laura E.Faulk, given in short here: Modoc clothing was functional, for winter wear they made moccasins,leggings, hats, Shirts, skirts and Robes from furry animal hides. For summer wear many of These clothing articles as well as loincloths for the men, were made from tule or other grasses hat grew plentiful in the area. The woven clothing did not last as Long as those made of animal fur, but was more easily and quickly made. In winter time, additionally Robes of fur or grass were used to stay warm, These were tied around the neck and waist to hold Body heat. Both men and women could wear basket-shaped hats, those of men were normally plain, while the ones of women often had decorative desgins. Those hats were waterproof and gave protection from the elements.In winter fur hats were preferred by the Modocs.
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Post by claudio on Apr 20, 2015 17:35:58 GMT -5
Hello Claudio, I think, this photograph shows not Keintpoos( Captain Jack ) cinemo Hi cinemo! Then you think that the old caption is wrong? Attachments:Capt. Jack.tif (497.14 KB)
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Post by cinemo on Apr 22, 2015 14:44:34 GMT -5
Hi Claudio,
the caption ( name ) is right, but the man is not the Modoc leader.
That photograph shows Captain Jack or Green Leaf, a chief of the White River Utes .
Greetings - cinemo
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Post by siapap on Jun 23, 2015 17:35:41 GMT -5
Hi everyone, I recently purchased the following photo at a garage sale and was just curious what anyone can tell me about it. I have not been able to locate anything specific about a Chief Sky from the Modoc Tribe in 1934. I was just wondering if anyone had any additional information about where this photo may have been taken and its authenticity? Thanks so much in advance. <Update: I may have located his name as Lee Snipes, Husband to Mollie?> Sia
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Post by Californian on Oct 25, 2018 18:53:53 GMT -5
Looking at the images side-by-side, it is doubtful that the image dated 1863 is really Kintpuash (Captain Jack) - note the shape of the brows, nose and most importantly the mouth which on the authenticated image is far wider. To me this alleged earlier photo of Kintpuash is most likely someone else. Over the years in my research I have come across numerous incorrect attributions of photographs of historical persons that ended up getting published and then were unscrupulously perpetuated in later publications using the earlier one as reference and considering it historical fact. Serious historians ought to be careful making too quick assertions without due research and verifying proper source references. Now this questionable image of Kintpuash is depicted on the Wikipedia page (Captain Jack) and I fear yet again it will end up in future publications as the "real" thing. Same happened with Morning Star a.k.a. Dull Knife of the Northern Cheyenne, a subject that is being discussed on another page of this forum.
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Post by Californian on Oct 25, 2018 19:12:10 GMT -5
I think the shirt and boots are surely not traditional. Does Cheewa James comment on how authentic the portrait of Captain Jack is, Cinemo? And have you read her book and recommend it? Thanks. In my archive I found this other photo of Captain Jack, but you probably already know. this image, despite its caption, is not Captain Jack of the Modoc - just look at the shape/size of the lips - the authenticated image of Kintpuash shows his with a wide mouth and thin lips, this chap has full lips - someone at the period tried to make a fast buck sporting just anyone and billing that one as Captain Jack (my opinion )
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Post by chicheman on Nov 7, 2018 6:42:41 GMT -5
Hello Californian, thanks for your input here. I too was interested in the subject, the two photos and wether the one in more traditional dress is Capt. Jack / Kintpuash the Modoc or not. I´m not sure either completely, but there is a close similarity I thought and there are about ten years in between when the photos were shot. Concerning the third photo in your last post, this is to my information showing the Ute warrior Jack / Nicaagat, not the Modoc chief. Best from Germany chicheman
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Post by Californian on Nov 8, 2018 10:53:15 GMT -5
hi Chicheman, thank you very kindly for your interesting comments and deductions. It seems that the contemporary Modoc nation is painfully aware of this mixing of two persons with the same name but from different tribes as is being discussed on this site: modoc-nation.blogspot.com/2016/11/you-dont-know-jack.html. I don't think that Jack of the Ute nation is the same person depicted in the below image widely used in print media and the net as depicting Kintpuash of the Modoc. Hopefully in due time his true identity can be determined. Sadly even the Gene Autry Museum in Los Angeles feature this particular image as Capt Jack the Modoc which author Robert McNally of the recent “The Modoc War – A Story of Genocide at the Dawn of America’s Gilded Age” has used. I fear that now it is in an authoritative printed book this misattribution will end up getting endlessly perpetuated. Greetings from Santa Fe, New Mexico Californian
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Post by Dietmar on Feb 3, 2021 10:30:47 GMT -5
What really is stunning is that photographer T. M. Wood indeed had a photographic studio in The Dalles, Oregon at least between 1863 and 1865. This is the copy of the alleged 1864 portrait of Captain Jack aka Kintpuash from the Autry Museum, front and back:
I`ve tried to find other pictures by T. M. Wood, but haven´t got any luck, yet.
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Post by grahamew on Feb 4, 2021 13:56:59 GMT -5
I really have no idea about this. The costume seems at odds with what little I know about California tribes - and I've probably been too influenced by the photos showing the Modocs as prisoners - but maybe Jack's band was influenced by the kind of clothing of tribes to their north and east, as opposed to the Maidu or the Karok, for example. If you look at the photos of the Warm Springs men taken after the conflict, they're not dressed in 'traditional' clothing, but is that because they were employed as scouts or is it because that is their everyday clothing and their days of leggings etc were long past? If this is THE Captain Jack (and not A Captain Jack, because it seems to be a common term for lazy whites to use to refer to Indians), I guess seeing the one in 1873 might not be that different to looking at a Lakota in blanket or robe, leggings and feather in, say, 1879, then jumping ahead to see the same man in coat, pants and hat in 1889. I'm still not sure, though. On Wood, he seems to have travelled through Idaho during this period, which opens up other possibilities: www.stereoworld.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/SW_V16_3.pdf
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Post by grahamew on Apr 17, 2021 10:54:20 GMT -5
Hollow Tooth, Modoc medicine man and supposedly the father of the Modoc Captain Jack, taken by Mapes, Baxter Springs in Kansas
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Post by chicheman on Mar 15, 2022 14:30:23 GMT -5
Hello grahemew, I wasn´t checking on this old Modoc board for quite a while and was surprised to find this photo posted by you, thanks for sharing. Totally unknown to me and gives us a slight glimpse of Modoc traditionalism, about head gear (maybe only worn by a medicine person), his hair is not that short cut as we saw on a number of men of several photos known of the Modoc war, and it looks like we can see on that photo also a traditional Modoc bow. Quite fancy trousers if I may mention, of course no way old style Modoc. I never knew or learned yet about Kintpuash´s father or mother, so that is interesting to see the possible father of him. Is there any note when this photo was done, some date ? Since it was done in Kansas it must have been in November 1873 where the exiled Modocs arrived on their train trip toward Indian Territory, their final destination. (Modoc, The tribe that wouldn´t die, Cheewa James, 2008). chicheman
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Post by grahamew on Mar 16, 2022 11:43:18 GMT -5
I have to admit, that I've come around to the idea that the Modoc may have been northern enough to have been influenced by the clothing style of the peoples of Oregon, but it certainly doesn't gibe with what I've read about 'traditional' Modoc clothing. I'd be a lot happier if we had other photos with the same backdrop - and if it is a Wood photo, is it not possible this was taken on his trip through Idaho? I'd love to know what the identification was based on. Was it someone seeing this and thinking: Hmmm. Facial features look a bit like Captain Jack, therefore... Or is there some kind of historical documentation - though even then, that might be questionable, as we've seen with other photos. On the other hand, look how quickly the everyday dress of the Lakota changed once they were on reservations. As to the photo of his father... The Modoc were relocated to the Quapaw Agency near Baxter Springs where this photographer, Elsworth Mapes, lived. He's in the 1900 and 1910 census but - best I can work out - he had been living in Illinois until at least 1894. Here's the reverse of the photo. The name is in ink, but the pencil notation (written by...?) states it shows the father of Captain Jack. If it is him, he must have been some age at the time.
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