Post by carlo on Oct 11, 2009 12:29:34 GMT -5
Hi Emily, Jinlian,
Thank you for the additional information, at least now we know a little bit more certain that a battle indeed took place there. And great add on the discussion re. the location of the village, it does make more sense now, Jinlian.
Re. the winter-count from AH for 1820-1821: it is as close as I could find as well, but I concluded AH was not referring to this battle, but to another one in the summer of 1820 near Tongue River. I could be wrong of course, but the year does match up with Grinnell's account in Fighting Cheyennes. This is my rendition of that story:
"In 1819 a war-party of thirty-two Cheyennes was surprised by the Crows and all were killed in a desperate two-day fight near Prairie Dog Creek, known to the Cheyennes as Crow Standing Off Creek. Late in the summer the following year, to avenge their deaths, the Cheyennes took their Sacred Arrows against the Crows, a rare occasion in Cheyenne history. They moved into Crow country and camped along the Powder River, where they were joined by the Lakota camped about a mile away on the other side of the river.
Further west on the Tongue River a large Crow village of one hundred lodges– about seven hundred men, women and children – was alerted to the presence of the enemy camps in their country. Crows scouts found the two camps and in the night killed a Cheyenne passing between the Lakota and Cheyenne villages. The Crow scouts hurried off into the night but were overtaken by Lakota and Cheyenne warriors. Two scouts were killed, but the others were able to get away.
Aware that their presence was now known, the Lakota and Cheyennes formed a large war-party and started off for the Crow village the same night. Meanwhile the Crow scouts arrived back at their village and a large war-party of nearly all their warriors – about 250 – rode out to attack the Lakota and Cheyenne camps. The war-parties passed each other on the plains without spotting each other.
It was still night when the Lakota and Cheyennes arrived at the Crow camp, which they surrounded, and the next morning they made their attack. The Crow camp was almost undefended, as most of the fighting men had joined the war-party, so the fight was uneven and short. Most of the remaining Crow men were killed and many women and children were captured. During the fight, a small Crow boy managed to escape and caught up with the Crow war-party on the plains. The Crows immediately rushed back to their village, but were unable to get back in time. The Lakota and Cheyenne war-party was already on it’s way home victoriously with many horses, prisoners and plunder, having dealt a severe blow to the Crows."
The other winter-counts are, as I understood it, a reference to an extremely cold winter, one in which even the crows (birds) tried to shelter in the tipi's (compare Good, Flame, Cloud Shield, Rosebud, and others for similar entries for 1788-1789). As Howard mentiones, the reference to Cherry Creek would likely be to the tributary of the Cheyenne River, some 100 miles away from our Crow Buttes. The winter-count event by Iron Shell could have happened, possibly referring to the killing of a Crow horse thief, but it might be a mistranslation of the same cold winter mentioned in the other counts. I agree it is always very difficult to read winter-counts and have them aligned, but I personally do not believe these link to the Crow Buttes battle.
Again, thanks for the adds, helped me out a lot.
Carlo
Thank you for the additional information, at least now we know a little bit more certain that a battle indeed took place there. And great add on the discussion re. the location of the village, it does make more sense now, Jinlian.
Re. the winter-count from AH for 1820-1821: it is as close as I could find as well, but I concluded AH was not referring to this battle, but to another one in the summer of 1820 near Tongue River. I could be wrong of course, but the year does match up with Grinnell's account in Fighting Cheyennes. This is my rendition of that story:
"In 1819 a war-party of thirty-two Cheyennes was surprised by the Crows and all were killed in a desperate two-day fight near Prairie Dog Creek, known to the Cheyennes as Crow Standing Off Creek. Late in the summer the following year, to avenge their deaths, the Cheyennes took their Sacred Arrows against the Crows, a rare occasion in Cheyenne history. They moved into Crow country and camped along the Powder River, where they were joined by the Lakota camped about a mile away on the other side of the river.
Further west on the Tongue River a large Crow village of one hundred lodges– about seven hundred men, women and children – was alerted to the presence of the enemy camps in their country. Crows scouts found the two camps and in the night killed a Cheyenne passing between the Lakota and Cheyenne villages. The Crow scouts hurried off into the night but were overtaken by Lakota and Cheyenne warriors. Two scouts were killed, but the others were able to get away.
Aware that their presence was now known, the Lakota and Cheyennes formed a large war-party and started off for the Crow village the same night. Meanwhile the Crow scouts arrived back at their village and a large war-party of nearly all their warriors – about 250 – rode out to attack the Lakota and Cheyenne camps. The war-parties passed each other on the plains without spotting each other.
It was still night when the Lakota and Cheyennes arrived at the Crow camp, which they surrounded, and the next morning they made their attack. The Crow camp was almost undefended, as most of the fighting men had joined the war-party, so the fight was uneven and short. Most of the remaining Crow men were killed and many women and children were captured. During the fight, a small Crow boy managed to escape and caught up with the Crow war-party on the plains. The Crows immediately rushed back to their village, but were unable to get back in time. The Lakota and Cheyenne war-party was already on it’s way home victoriously with many horses, prisoners and plunder, having dealt a severe blow to the Crows."
The other winter-counts are, as I understood it, a reference to an extremely cold winter, one in which even the crows (birds) tried to shelter in the tipi's (compare Good, Flame, Cloud Shield, Rosebud, and others for similar entries for 1788-1789). As Howard mentiones, the reference to Cherry Creek would likely be to the tributary of the Cheyenne River, some 100 miles away from our Crow Buttes. The winter-count event by Iron Shell could have happened, possibly referring to the killing of a Crow horse thief, but it might be a mistranslation of the same cold winter mentioned in the other counts. I agree it is always very difficult to read winter-counts and have them aligned, but I personally do not believe these link to the Crow Buttes battle.
Again, thanks for the adds, helped me out a lot.
Carlo