Young Sitting Bull

[grahamew]

Hmmmm. Not sure, to be honest. Made sense when you said so, but comparing him with other photos, I'm not so sure.

[Dietmar]

I believe he´s not No Flesh. He seems to have a flat or broken nose, hasn´t he? I also can´t find him in the big 1875 delegation photo. Like Grey Cloud, he seems to be a member not mentioned on any delegation list we have discussed before.

[Dietmar]

translation from the Russian website:
"In the early 1870's Russian amateur ethnographer Innocent Petrovich Kuznetsov during a trip to the American West has collected about 30 pictures acquired in various photo studios (Fig. 100, 101, 102). Some of the pictures are of great interest because it may be preserved in a single copy. His collection is currently in storage at the Museum of Tomsk State University."

Can anyone of our Russian members read what is written on top of the photograph? Thanks.

[Dietmar]

We got some help from Mike Cowdrey who suggested that the man with Sitting Bull is Lean Elk, who was also a delegate ot the 1872 trip, when he was photographed by Alexander Gardner:



He-Kha-Ka-Ta-Ma-Ka or Hehaka Tamaheca (Lean Elk) or (Poor Elk) in Partial Native Dress with Ornaments MAY 1872 (SIRIS)


According to Mike, "Tamaheca" (ta-ma-hay-cha), which might be translated "skinny," has the connotation of the Spanish nickname "Weso," or the English phrase "no meat on his bones." The Russian annotation "Without Meat" was an attempt at the same idea.

[Dietmar]

[andrew]

Feb 3, 2015 9:14:37 GMT -5 Dietmar said:

translation from the Russian website:
"In the early 1870's Russian amateur ethnographer Innocent Petrovich Kuznetsov during a trip to the American West has collected about 30 pictures acquired in various photo studios (Fig. 100, 101, 102). Some of the pictures are of great interest because it may be preserved in a single copy. His collection is currently in storage at the Museum of Tomsk State University."

Can anyone of our Russian members read what is written on top of the photograph? Thanks.

Indians from Sioux tribe or Dakota, Dakota territory

[Californian]

Feb 2, 2015 14:01:45 GMT -5 Dietmar said:

Is this really No Flesh?

I own an original Trager & Kuhn photograph from the 1880's of NO FLESH - and he looks younger. The one you have seems to show an older man.



.

[ephriam]

Still on the hunt for anything about the family background of the Oglala Sitting Bull killed at the Tongue River Cantonment in December 1876. Here are the words of Little Wound that confirms young Sitting Bull was a member of the Little Wound family. This letter was written shortly after the Cheyenne Outbreak at Fort Robinson:

Pine Ridge Agency, D.T.
Feb’y 1” 1879

Commander of
Fort Robinson
Nebraska

Sir

I have the honor to report that “Little Wound” chief of a large band of Ogalalla Indians requests me to say to you for him, that he has in the past troubles stood firm for the Gov’t and thinks it would be just to him to hear what he has to say. The Whistler family belonged to my band and relatives of mine. They were all murdered by white men, not soldiers. “Young Setting Bear” or “Carries the Drum,” my son, while on a mission of peace and carrying a dispatch to the near mouth of tongue river, was killed by Crows with the white soldiers and now you have a full blood Ogalalla “Big Head” my first cousin who married a Cheyenne women and happens in that way to be with the Cheyennes he is now wounded and perhaps crippled for life and now he would ask as a favor from the Gov’t and in view of his many misfortunes, that Big Head be released and turned over to his band where he properly belongs, and that you will show him a special favor by telegraphing to such authority as may be able to release him, as so many of our relatives and friends have been killed you can surely afford to do me the favor I ask. He wants you to be kind enough to answer this letter and tell him what you can do.

Your Friend
his X mark
Little Wound

I certify on honor that I interpreted the above letter to “Little Wound” and he says it is his exact meaning.
Leon F. Pallardy

Letters Received, Adjutant General’s Office (M666 Roll 429).

[hreinn]

Ephriam; Great research as always and great finding to find this letter from Little Wound.


Sitting Bull vs. Sitting Bear

In Little Wound's letter above, the names of his son (or "son") are given as:
a) "Young Setting Bear" (which is most likely Young Sitting Bear / Sitting Bear (but not Sitting Bull))
b) "Carries the Drum" (which is most likely the same name as "Drum on his Back" and "Packs the Drum")

The name of his son must be correct in the letter.
Which is Sitting Bear.
But not Sitting Bull.

This letter seems to shed a light on what seems to be a persistent confusion between 2 men.
Which were called "Oglala Sitting Bull A" and "Oglala Sitting Bull B", in a post from Aug 31, 2011 in this thread.
Where Little Wound's son in the letter above is the "Oglala Sitting Bull B" (seen in photographs 4 and 5 in the post from Aug 31, 2011).
But his real name was not Sitting Bull, but instead Sitting Bear.
At yet an unknown time, the name Sitting Bull "got stuck" in the literature with this son of Little Wound.
But, here we have it, from his father Little Wound, that his son's name was Sitting Bear.
So the list of information in a post from Jul 22, 2011 in this thread, is divided between Sitting Bull and Sitting Bear (i.e. Oglala Sitting Bull and Young Sitting Bear).


The name Sitting Bear runs in American Horse's family.
According to a post from Kingsley Bray, American Horse's and Little Wound's families are related.
So, the "Young" part is perhaps to distinguish between two Sitting Bears, one in Little Wound's family and another in American Horse's family.

Dec 15, 2013 5:58:14 GMT -5 kingsleybray said:

I dont want to pre-empt / spoiler too much of my analysis, but here are some thoughts relevant to American Horse. I finally have understood to my satisfaction the apparent contradiction between George Hyde's repeated statement that American Horse and his paternal antecedents belonged to the True Oglala band, and other statements that align him with the Southern Oglala division or Kiyuksa. All Oglala are stemmed off directly or indirectly from the original or founder band, the Kiyuksa. This band split somewhat before 1750 in the incident recalled as the Dirt Scattering, hence the coining of the new name Oglala. I have fuller details on this, including the principal protagonists and a hypothetical precise date. The two bands created by the split were the Kiyuksa and the Bad Face; collectively they were called the Oglala. American Horse's family was (according to Joe American Horse's statement to me) called the "Bear clan", Mahto tiyoshpaye. At this time they were lined up with the Bad Face. I suggest their leader was Bear Boy, remembered in Black Elk's account of the hunka ceremony - which in turn is a retelling of a historic event of the 1750s. There has always been a multiplicity of 'bear' names in the American Horse family.
From descendants of Standing Bull I know that their family was closest related within the tribe to (A) the American Horses and (B) the Bull Bears. My reconstruction would be now that the marriage I alluded to was that Standing Bull himself married into the American Horse family / Bear clan soon after 1760, becoming American Horse's great-great grandfather. I spoke to other Oglala people whose family trees stemmed back to Standing Bull and his son Parts of Body.
There was a reunion effected between the Kiyuksa and the Bad Face bands in the 1760s and 70s - a process not a one-off event. The tribe was reformed. The name True Oglala got attached to some communities e.g. the Bear clan and the tiyoshpaye later led by Bad Wound. From subsequent marriages in the later 1700s the Bear clan became closer attached to the Kiyuksa, in particular it seems to the sub-band called Kuhinyan. One of the brothers of Sitting Bear (born in the 1780s and 90s) was called Red Bear and was identified by Tom American Horse (interview with Scudder Mekeel 1931) with the Kuhinyan. Moreover Lone Bull, interviewed by Donald Collier in 1939 listed American Horse as a Kuhinyan (although acknowledging that AH was also part of Red Cloud's band, the Bad Face or True Oglala). From winter count evidence I think that the Bear clan probably was part of the Southern Oglala until 1858 or 59, it then joined the Northern Oglalas in the Powder River country. After Pine Ridge was established the old ties to the Southern Oglalas were renewed and the American Horses settled in the Medicine Root District.

[gregor]

Here is a pic of the Henry Model 1860 .44 caliber rifle which was presented to Sitting Bull the Minor (Sitting Bull the Good, Oglala Lakota, 1841-1876) on June 6, 1875 by President Ulysses S. Grant.
Collected by General Nelson A. Miles (1839-1925, U.S. Army, then a colonel) following Sitting Bull's death at the hands of the Crows on December 16, 1876 on the Tongue River in Montana.

nmai.si.edu/searchcollections/item.aspx?irn=152840

The dedication says: " To Sitting Bull from The President for true bravery & true friendship"

[hreinn]

Possible links between Sitting Bear and Sitting Bulls:


1.
Perhaps Little Wound's son Sitting Bear (a.k.a. Carries the Drum) was a member of the Lakota peace delegation going to General Miles who the Crows killed in December 1876.
Perhaps Sitting Bear carried the riffle which President Grant had given to Oglala Sitting Bull.
Where the riffle was expected to show that Lakota people could be on good terms with the whites as demonstrated by a recent gift from the President himself.
So when the Army soldiers picked up the dead Lakota bodies, they saw this riffle and thought the name of the man carrying the riffle was Sitting Bull.
Therefore this tradition to call Carries the Drum as Sitting Bull.


2.
It is possible that the Hunkpapa Sitting Bull was mother brother of Sitting Bear (aka. Carries the Drum) = Little Wound's son in the letter above (see Ephriams's post on October 29, 2017).
Because according to Collier's field notes based on interview with Lone Bull, someone by the name Little Wound married Hunkpapa Sitting Bull's sister.
If this Little Wound in Lone Bull's genalogy was the famous Little Wound in the letter above and if the mother of Sitting Bear was Sitting Bull's sister.
Then the Hunkpapa Sitting Bull was Sitting Bear's mother brother.

[kingsleybray]

I have recently learned some new information on Sitting Bull the Oglala, or Packs the Drum, from friends at Pine Ridge. His ceremonial adoptive or hunka father was Old Man Afraid of His Horse. He and Sword Owner, elder brother of George Sword, were head akicita in Man Afraid of His Horse's Oglala village in late summer-fall 1867. Their warrior society the Wiciska was in charge of akicita or police functions.

I am getting the feeling - could be wrong - that Sitting Bull/Packs the Drum was a son of Brown Bull, Tatanka Gi, a brother of Little Wound's. I hope to clarify that.

[Henri]

Jan 17, 2020 5:34:03 GMT -5 kingsleybray said:

I have recently learned some new information on Sitting Bull the Oglala, or Packs the Drum, from friends at Pine Ridge. His ceremonial adoptive or hunka father was Old Man Afraid of His Horse. He and Sword Owner, elder brother of George Sword, were head akicita in Man Afraid of His Horse's Oglala village in late summer-fall 1867. Their warrior society the Wiciska was in charge of akicita or police functions.

I am getting the feeling - could be wrong - that Sitting Bull/Packs the Drum was a son of Brown Bull, Tatanka Gi, a brother of Little Wound's. I hope to clarify that.

According my information is, that Sitting Bull was the son of Slow Bull & Wears the Leaf….