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Post by grahamew on Feb 26, 2010 12:07:09 GMT -5
 By Sharp |
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Post by calvinspottedelk on Jul 22, 2010 13:55:42 GMT -5
As far as I know, the man in the second photograph (Big Foot and White Hawk) is Big Foot the Oglala and the picture was taken in occasion of the 1872 delegation to Washington. I don't remember Big Foot the Minneconjou being a delegate that year - does anybody have further information? I can't say who the photograph is of. It slightly resembles my grandfather but I don't know if it is him in his younger years (but then the date would be wrong). What I am pretty certain of is that I did not have a grandma named White Hawk. Hope that helps. Calvin |
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Post by calvinspottedelk on Jul 22, 2010 14:08:37 GMT -5
I am raising a six year old named Icamna Spotted Elk. His Grandfather was Colin Spotted Elk. Colin was from Sicungu but we are thinking his ancestry was minneconjou. Can you help with this. Hello. I am Mniconjou and it was my great-great grandfather Spotted Elk who was the chief of the people who were killed at Wounded Knee, 1890. We are not from Rosebud and have no relatives named Colin in our tree, but I was able to look him up in the Social Security Death Index. Perhaps if you don't have an oral history or any other records, this will help point you in the right direction in locating your child's relatives. You can also make a genealogy request to the tribe. Here is what I found. Hope it helps. Collin D. Spotted Elk B:4-23-1949 D:9-9-1999 Location: South Dakota Collection: Social Security Death Index Sincerely, Calvin :) |
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Post by calvinspottedelk on Jul 22, 2010 14:40:47 GMT -5
I am raising a six year old named Icamna Spotted Elk. His Grandfather was Colin Spotted Elk. Colin was from Sicungu but we are thinking his ancestry was minneconjou. Can you help with this. Darwin, Also, you might want to check into Ft. Snelling, Minnesota, Pierre, South Dakota and White River Indian agencies because most people that were Sicangu or from Rosebud had their probate and land records held at those places. Calvin |
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Post by kingsleybray on Dec 21, 2015 8:35:53 GMT -5
I thought it was a good time to renew this thread, and hone in on identifying Richard Spotted Elk in the early census record. Ephriam mentions the candidates in one of the messages above. I think we are missing the right guy. Consider his family details in the 1890 Pine Ridge census, Wagluhe band:
Hehaka Gleska, Spotted Elk, father, age 47 [born c. 1842-43]
Otawicape, Follower, wife, 33
Kle ska agli, Bring Spotted, daughter, 9
Nakpa ogi, Brown Ears, daughter, 6
Ta wapaha opi, Shoot His Bonnet, son, 2
Holding that thought, rewind to the September 1881 census at Standing Rock (published by Ephriam as THE SITTING BULL SURRENDER LEDGER). I think our man is listed among the Miniconjou, as Census Family 451:
Un-pan-gle-ska, Spotted She Elk, age 32
Mrs Spotted Elk, wife, 24
Gle-ska-a-gli-win, Brings Spotted, daughter, 2.
The age inconsistencies are ballpark for the census procedures of the day. Sure, in one his name is listed as Hehaka Gleska, that is literally a spotted male elk; in the other it's Onpon Gleska, where onpon is the female elk, or the word for the collective elk species. But that is not unknown. A probable relative who was a chief in the 1860s and 70s, had his name translated as Elk Bellows Walking, but at different times his Lakota name was represented as Hehaka ... and Onpon .... So, not an overriding obstacle. And the suggestive detail is the daughter with the name Brings Back Spotted, age 2 in 1881 (born about 1879) and 9 in 1890 (born about 1881). Again ballpark age guesses but we get a split the difference birth date of early 1880 for this daughter. Then, Family 452 is that of Elk That Makes Noise, another attempt at translating the name of Dick Spotted Elk's brother Elk Voice Walking/Noisy walking Elk etc. I think these points make a strong case for these Spotted Elks to be one and the same man/family. It would also help with the fact that Huffman at Ft Keogh photographed a Minneconjou head warrior called Spotted Elk, and he's visibly the same man as Dick Spotted Elk.
I suggest the next stage in the story is that Spotted Elk with family (grown to four people) is listed among the Lakota people transferred from Standing Rock to Pine Ridge in spring 1882. See the Oglala Transfer List also printed, pages 299-300, in Ephriam's edition. And that we then pick him up in the Pine Ridge censuses from 1886 forward.
That he was originally Miniconjou agrees with the putative connection to Spotted Elk/Big Foot, and also connections he had to Roman Nose, the Miniconjou headman who died in Canada in 1878. An unmarried "Single Man" named Spotted Elk is listed in Roman Nose's family in the Spotted Tail Agency census in June 1877. I have just been told that Dick Spotted Elk was a nephew of Roman Nose, his mother being Roman Nose's sister.
He enlisted as a scout while he was at Spotted Tail. This is what Billy Garnett recalled when Spotted Elk's widow applied for a US Army pension:
"Witness Wm Garnett, 9 March 1925: “States that he has known Spotted Elk and Pretty Cow [widow] since he was a small boy, at least since 1865… Spotted Elk enlisted as a scout in about the month of May or June 1877, and served for three months, in the campaign against the Sioux and Cheyenne Indians… At that time Spotted Elk went by the name of Payayala, which means Limber Nose or Wiggling Nose… [he] married Pretty Cow… in 1886.”
Missing pieces: Spotted Elk must have joined the flight to Canada in January 1878, at the time his uncle Roman Nose broke away (January 10th). He probably was among the Miniconjous who surrendered at Ft Keogh, October 1880. One of the leaders of the band surrendering was Roman Nose's son Charging Eagle -- probably a man Spotted Elk called cousin. Hence he's in the right place to have his photo taken by Huffman, before being steamboated down to Standing Rock in July 1881 where all surrendered Lakotas were interned.
Please advise if anything is wrong in my conclusions!!
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Post by kingsleybray on Dec 21, 2015 9:00:12 GMT -5
As a clue to why marriage relations can be so confusing, consider the marital history of Dick Spotted Elk's second wife, as revealed in the Army pension file documentation:
Widow of Spotted Elk, Pretty Cow, born winter 1852, of Oglala, SD.
Previous husbands: Red Shirt, 1871-1873.
White man named McBratton, 1874-1875.
Bear Lays Down, 1875-1877.
Sitting Bear, 1877-1878.
Afraid of Nothing, Yankton, 1878-1881.
Not Afraid of A Sioux, a Crow, 1884-1885.
Spotted Elk, 1886-1908.
That's seven husbands by the age of 34!
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Post by davidg52 on Dec 29, 2015 16:37:34 GMT -5
I am very Interested in learning all I can of the Lakota people this is a great forum! great pictures.. and for the history I am sorry, for what they did to the Lakota people!
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Post by ladonna on Dec 31, 2015 10:21:49 GMT -5
we are still here and we are alive
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Post by jones on May 7, 2016 16:16:55 GMT -5
<< we are still here and we are alive >> -ladonna www.wildapache.net/NativeAmericanSite/pages/NApopulation.htmlNATIVE AMERICAN TRIBES POPULATION RANKINGS Native American Population: 1,878,285 = 100.0 % *This information was obtained from the US Department of Commerce Bureau of the Census Washington, D.C. 20233 Tribes with more than 1,000 members, listed by State U.S. Census Bureau press release on Native American Tribal populations |
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Post by hreinn on Sept 29, 2017 23:03:17 GMT -5
Good discussion above.
Regarding the siblings Roman Nose and his sister (her name ?):
They were both either:
a) born and raised in Wakpokiyan tiyoshpaye
b) married into Wakpokiyan tiyoshpaye
Based on the following (from above), taken as a whole:
1. Mother of Richard (Dick) Spotted Elk was sister of Roman Nose
2. An unmarried single man named Spotted Elk was listed in Roman Nose's family in 1877.
3. Another Spotted Elk (a.k.a. Big Foot) was raised in Wakpokiyan tiyoshpaye by Lone Horn
4. Richard Spotted Elk was listed next to Elk Bellows Walking (aka. Whistling Elk) in 1881 as head of families number 451 and 452.
I bet on the former, i.e. Roman Nose and his sister were born and raised in Wakpokiyan tiyoshpaye.
Does anyone know for sure ?
Are their parents names known ?
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Post by Californian on Nov 13, 2018 1:42:57 GMT -5
please forgive me for tying into this older thread pertaining to the various men named Spotted Elk and/or Big Foot. To me Dietmar positively identified Spotted Elk of the Miniconjou tribe in the photograph by Thomas Smillie of the Smithsonian dated 1882. His facial features most closely resemble the ones that can be seen in the infamous Gustav "Gus" Trager photograph of his body on the massacre site at Wounded Knee. On the website www.findagrave.com several more images are posted, another credible one dated 1888 while on the steps of the Capitol in Washington.      from left to right for sure images 1 and 2 are documented to depict Spotted Elk of the Cheyenne River Agency delegation, images 3 and 4 show the same man and I believe can be attributed to be Spotted Elk of the Miniconjou tribe - image 5 ... I did not want to post it at first, but then felt that it was necessary to do so. Should anyone be offended and object I will certainly remove it. image provenance: 1 = Diplomats in Bucksin by Herman J. Viola, 1981 2 = www.loc.gov/resource/cph.3b39205/, Library of Congress Digital Image Collection 3 = www.findagrave.com/memorial/77411039/chief-spotted_elk4 = www.american-tribes.com/Lakota/BIO/BigFoot-Miniconjou.htm5 = www.loc.gov/pictures/item/96515707/, Library of Congress Digital Image Collection |
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Post by Dietmar on Nov 13, 2018 11:28:00 GMT -5
Thanks Californian,
you can´t repeat it often enough that your comparison above indeed shows Spotted Elk aka Big Foot, who was killed at Wounded Knee, BUT NOT the often printed and published portrait of the 1872 Oglala delegate Big Foot, photographed by Alexander Gardner!
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Post by Californian on Nov 14, 2018 11:14:50 GMT -5
thank you Dietmar - I totally concur with you that all efforts must be made that the correct attributions of persons depicted in historical photographs are perpetuated. It truly irks me how many scrupulous publishers just arbitrarily use images without due research. We are not only doing history a disfavor but also disrespect the family and descendants of these people. We are here of course focused on one single topic, Native Americana. I cannot image how many false attributions are floating out there for anything else.
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Post by grahamew on Nov 14, 2018 12:51:40 GMT -5
In Jerome Greene's American Carnage, there's a supposed photo of Big Foot that I'm pretty sure is Joe Black Fox from his Wild West Show days.
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Post by Californian on May 27, 2020 14:56:32 GMT -5
hi Dietmar, going laterally into this old string pertaining to Spotted Elk (a.k.a. Big Foot) - has anyone identified the below Spotted Elk ? Here the Smithsonian also think it is Spotted Elk of Miniconjou that died at Wounded Knee and I believe a painting of this man is the one depicted on the wikipedia page for the real Spotted Elk (a.k.a. Big Foot), something I would like to correct, provided I can offer some comment as to the identification of the man below. So these are the L.A. Huffman photos of Spotted Elk:    |
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