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Post by miyelo on Nov 13, 2008 18:04:46 GMT -5
hey...does anyone out there know if there is a photo of a brule named ''Center Woman" anywhere??? She was taken by the soldiers after the massacre at Ash Hollow/Blue Water. Harney's soldiers took a lot of the young women, mostly Little Thunders and Iron Shells and raped them and gave them back after some time. But there was one, Iron Shell's daughter, who i guess is in some journals as being the most beautiful Indian woman ever seen, Center Woman who was very young and already a medicine woman, she would sit in the center with the pipe, hence her name. Anyway, it is know she was taken by a soldier but no one knows where and she was never heard from again. Her grand daughter here is searching but our outlets are limited. Any info would be appreciated. Wopila
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Post by Dietmar on Nov 15, 2008 16:40:41 GMT -5
Miyelo,
I haven´t heard of that name before. But I looked in "With My Own Eyes" by Susan Bordeaux Bettelyoun and Josphine Waggoner and found the following quote: "Among the prisoners were many young, nice-looking women who became the property of their captors. Iron Shell´s wife´s younger sister was taken back east by an officer and was never again heard of. None of her relatives ever heard what was her fate; the poor girl might have soon died of grief or lonesomeness or might have taken her own life." (page 64)
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Post by miyelo on Nov 15, 2008 21:42:51 GMT -5
dietmar
wow. wow. wow. yes that is her. d**n. i wish we could find something else out about what happened to her. The family says there were pictures taken of the women and they believe Center Woman would have been photographed because she was so beautiful.
thank you so much
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Post by kingsleybray on Nov 17, 2008 11:02:35 GMT -5
Here is my information from Carl Iron Shell, via Rosemary Lessard (letter to KMB, April 18, 1983). Carl was the son of Peter Iron Shell, a grandson of old Iron Shell.
"There is a tradition in the Iron Shell family that 'Old' Iron Shell had twelve wives - not all at once - all of whom were related. We learned of three of these wives, who may have been the women to whom Iron Shell was married longest, or who may have been those who bore him children. Carl believed that Iron Shell married Roan Horse Woman first, then Center Woman, then Old Burnt; he believed that the last two were full sisters, but didn't know whether Roan Horse Woman was their sister or their cousin (parallel cousins are called 'sisters' in Lakota terminology. I am not certain how these three marriages overlapped.
"Incidentally, two other sisters of Center Woman and Old Burnt became the wives of American Horse, the Oglala chief.
"The children of 'Old' Iron Shell and Roan Horse: 'Young' Iron Shell Shot at Many Times Hollow Horn Bear (the eldest) Bird Necklace Goes to War
"The children of 'Old' Iron Shell and Center Woman: Arnold (perhaps called 'Search the Enemy' in Lakota) Blue Whirlwind (a daughter) They Love Her (a daughter) Pretty Bird
"The children of 'Old' Iron Shell and Old Burnt: Peter Holy Man Bear Dog Roan Horse (a daughter, named for her aunt) Lightning (a daughter)"
Information provided by Arnold Iron Shell will be found throughout Royal B. Hassrick, THE SIOUX: LIFE AND CUSTOMS OF A WARRIOR SOCIETY (University of Oklahoma Press, 1964).
Not sure of the connection between what looks like two Center Womans, but anyway, important information, and - jinlian alert!! - a clue to the American Horse marriages too!
Best Wishes
Kingsley
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Post by kingsleybray on Nov 17, 2008 11:16:43 GMT -5
From the 1900 Rosebud Reservation census (accessible online at . Old Burnt was then alive, born May 1838, lived in the family of her son Shoshone (born 1860) and his wife Lightning. The children of the latter couple: Thomas and Sophie Shoshone, born 1890 and 1893 respectively. Old Iron Shell's sons in the 1900 census. Hollow Horn Bear, aka Tons of Bone, born March 1850 Young Iron Shell, born April 1850 Goes to War, born April 1851 Stephen Brave Bird (aka Never Comes Down), born September 1857 Bear Dog, born September 1858 Arnold Iron Shell (aka Swimming Skunk), born January 1864 Peter Iron Shell, born December 1876 (nb may be a grandson) According to the 1889 Rosebud Land Agreement signatories, Bird Necklace was born in 1864/65. Toksha Kingsley
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Post by jinlian on Nov 17, 2008 12:20:57 GMT -5
Thanks, Kingsley ;D Incidentally, in the last few days, I got from the Smithsonian Institute a photograph, most likely taken around 1876, of American Horse, one of his wives (don't think it was Istinma "Sleep", as the woman looked to be in late 30s-middle 40s and Sleep would have been in her in her early 30s and, what's more, I can't see any resemblance) and a daughter. I can't post the full picture, as didn't get permission to reproduce it, but I suppose I can risk posting a close-up of this woman. Will do it later. However, this woman might have been also American Horse's first wife (mother of his son Mato Napesni, "Bear Don't Scare") who, in a document Ephriam found some months ago, was Red Spotted Calf aka Spotted Elk Woman. About Iron Shell's daughters-in-law being the wives of American Horse: the guy in fact seems to have contract quite a number of marriages. In 1890 (according to William Fitch Kelley) he had no less than 5 wives; when 1895 he was arrested for polygamy, he was married to 4 wives, so there were surely more than the official two (Sleep and her sister Josie). About these last two wives, I'm not sure they can be identified with Center Woman's "sisters": given the closer and closer association of American Horse with the Wagluhe band following his marriage to Sleep (1871) I'd think both actually came from this band, but I've no objective data to corroborate it. One last thought: are we sure the Oglala American Horse mentioned in the Carl Iron Shell document should be identified with the True Oglala/Loafer leader and not with Woman Dress' brother? Just thinking... More later.
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Post by Dietmar on Nov 17, 2008 14:15:51 GMT -5
Jinlian, I don´t know if you mean this photo, but believe it or not I scanned it today before I even read your posting: It seems this is a Mitchell photo, right? I´m looking forward to your close-ups.
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Post by jinlian on Nov 17, 2008 14:37:47 GMT -5
Dietmar,
not the same photo, but one belonging to the same series (different pose and with a better definition) - it's indeed a Mitchell photo, as the two other shots posted in the American Horse thread. I'm going to feed my cats now and then will post the close-up. By the way shall I post it here, or in the American Horse thread? For I'm all but sure the woman we're speaking of is one of Center Woman's sisters...
Jin
p.s. Incidentally, I'm almost sure this was the photo sent to Edwin Landy - I'm trying to get a copy of the American Horse- Landy papers to have a confirm.
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Post by kingsleybray on Nov 17, 2008 14:52:49 GMT -5
whoa, jinlian, those landy papers would be a-mayzing if you can manage it. And on a more sober note, re the American Horse-Iron Shell connection: check the photo of "The 'Bed Room' of American Horse", i.e. his log cabin interior printed in EYEWITNESS AT WOUNDED KNEE, eds. Jensen, Paul & Carter (University Nebraska Press, 1991) p. 147. Isn't that Iron Shell (the face on head and shoulders A. Gardner portrait 1872) on the wall to the right of the foot of the bed? If so a family connection looms larger. Just identifying all the photo's on the wall could keep us busy for a couple of weeks . . . .
Kingsley
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Post by jinlian on Nov 17, 2008 15:42:45 GMT -5
Kingsley, you mean this picture? Sorry, I don't have "Eyewitness at Wounded Knee" and don't know if there's another shot of the room. In this one, the pictures on the wall, right of the bed are too small to be seen. The big picture on the head looks like a portrait of AH himself, I remember I have read somewhere a statement by Joe American Horse, who added that the Ghost Dancers "loaded it with bullets" when the house was ransacked. Indeed it looks damaged... p.s. about the Landy papers: I've been hunting them for ages! Please all, keep your fingers crossed...
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Post by miyelo on Nov 17, 2008 20:16:06 GMT -5
wow. thanks everybody. Kingsley I will take this info to Bernadine and see what she knows about all this. She did not mention there was an older Center Woman, just that the Center Woman the soldiers took was never seen again, and that she was young. I am also wondering about ''Shot At Many Times" if the ''Shot With Two Arrows" family here is connected. Translations are such a big problem from those days. Actually still are.
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Post by Dietmar on Nov 19, 2008 8:38:18 GMT -5
I have tried to make a scan from a very good version of the photo of American Horse´s bedroom. Look here: This is clearly the Mitchell photo, please compare to the very first picture in the "American Horse" thread. I´m pretty sure Kingsley is right... I see the Gardner photo of Iron Shell, which I posted in the "Iron Shell Family" thread. It´s hard to discern the other ones, though...
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Post by jinlian on Nov 19, 2008 9:54:05 GMT -5
Now that I think of it, according to George Hyde American Horse in 1880 went to Rosebud to hold "secret talks" with Spotted Tail on behalf of Red Cloud. Was he chosen because of a Brulé family connection? This makes me think also of the following statement by William Garnett (Eli Ricker interview) "Afterwards [AH told McKenzie that the Loafers wanted him as chief] his own relations who were numerous, adhered to him." This would suggest an almost Habsburgic marriage policy ... (we shouldn't forget the numerous sources speaking of AH as "son-in-law" of Red Cloud - was he married to a woman [from the Bad Faces or the Loafers?] who was Red Cloud's biological daughter or who just called RC "father" in the Lakota meaning of the word?)
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Post by kingsleybray on Nov 19, 2008 10:46:08 GMT -5
Also, consider the story in Billy Garnett's interview with Ricker: that Two Strike (Brule chief) sent to Billy "a horse from Spotted Tail [Agency] which Garnett had bought from him, by American Horse". American Horse had been attending the Brule sponsored Sun Dance in first week July, 1877, the location was more or less where the Chadron city airport is today, i.e. on the highway running west from Chadron toward Crawford, Fort Robinson, Red Cloud Agency No. 2.
Kingsley
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Post by miyelo on Nov 25, 2008 22:42:47 GMT -5
hey everyone! thanks for all the info.
well I screwed this up: it was Center Woman's SISTER who was kidnapped and never found.
also, Roan Horse was actually ''Rode Horse'' to the People, and she was Cheyenne.
we are still looking for info on Center Woman's sister who was kidnapped from Ash Hollow...
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