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Post by decoy1 on Dec 31, 2020 15:53:45 GMT -5
This is David Bunn Martine, great-grandson of Charles Martine, Sr. first from left, taken at Mescalero, and grandson of Charles Martine, Jr. second from left taken in New York City in the early 1960's. Alice Longfellow Chee, at the bottom, is the sister of Charles Martine, Jr. Charles Martine, Jr. in headdress and first on the left in the line taken in the 1940's in New York, is the son of Cah-gah-ashen shown in photo second from left with Charles Martine, Sr. at Fort Sill. Charles Martine, Jr. is the brother of George Martine, color photo taken at Mescalero in 1978. The fourth from left picture is the famous photo of Martine left and Kayitah right. This picture is mis-identified in books as Martine right. Martine is on the left in this picture. Last picture closeup of "Old Martine" younger. I also previously placed images of my Shinnecock - Montauk family in the Northeast Woodlands section. Thank you. Sincerely, David Martine decoy 1 Attachments:
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Post by coeurrouge on Jan 1, 2021 13:06:00 GMT -5
Hello, welcome and Happy new year.
As we understood, Charles Martine Jr. was adopted by Charles sr when he married Cah-gah-ashen. Charles was captured and was less than 1 year old by cow-boys when Cah-gah-ashen fled with her husband Chinche in may 1885.
Charles Jr. was Chinche's son. I do not know if Cah-gah-ashen was already the wife of Chinche in 1877. When Chinche fled with his brother Ponce and Victorio. At this time Chinche let a wife, one son and two daughters. i do not know what happen to them. Did they survive of the 1882-1883 life in Sierra Madre?
Again welcome here.
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Post by decoy1 on Jan 2, 2021 13:20:32 GMT -5
Thanks very for your message and welcome. I re-entered the above material because I couldn't find it from before. I am not that active on the blog so I guess it was removed? I also wrote the below material before an lost it because I didn't sign in correctly and the computor thought I was a fake with the same name. I am David Bunn Martine, grandson of Charles Martine, Jr.
Charles Martine, Jr. was not "captured". It was his brother who slipped of the horse as a baby in his cradle-board from the horse of Cah-ga-ashen who was riding on an escape from the soldiers. We were told that the baby was rescued by cowboys and taken to the soldiers. He eventually became a civil engineer in Arizona with live stock and became prosperous for a time. His name became "Sam Adams". My grandfather, Charles,Jr. did not ever see his brother. Charles was born in 1886 and died on the Shinnecock Reservation in New York, in 1962. My grandfather had this confirmed by his relative, Vincent Nah-tal-lish, grandson of Victorio who was also living in New York at the time. He said Chin-chee called him "nephew". I guess that was in the Apache way. He said, my great-grandfather, Chin-chee, was a very brave warrior and had been out with Geronimo on the warpath in Arizona and Mexico. We thought within the family that he was killed about two weeks before Geronimo's final surrender. My grandfather is related to the Martines, Chees, Botellas and Sagos at Mescalero. He was also related to Nana, Mangas-Coloradas, Victorio, Chato, Martine, and Harold Dick.
My grandfather, Charles. Jr., whose Apache name was "You-gath-leh" meaning - "to look after", which may not be accurate, was born at Ft. Bowie and was raised at Ft. Sill with his brothers and sisters. He was very close to his brother, George Martine. His his brothers and sisters are all buried very close to the Geronimo grave at the Apache cemetery at Fort Sill, Oklhaoma. Old Martine and George and the family moved to Mescalero Apache reservation.
As for Ponce being Chin-chee's brother, we never knew this within the family. I have seen the name, "Ponce" mentioned rarely in books, but I did not put the two together. Sometimes more than one Indian can have the same name and of course be mis-identified in photographs. One example is the above photograph of Martine and Kayetah. This has always been printed incorrectly with Martine on the right, when he is obviously on the left. Also, the picture of the pueblo man being used as Cochise, Noche being used as a photo of Taza, and the picture of Victorio is actually supposed to be a picture of "Victor" a White-Mountain Apache, I believe, and not Victorio. Interestingly, the picture of Vincent Nahtalish at Carlisle, Victorio's grandson, resembles the famous photo that has been used as Victorio. I wonder how Mr. Sweeney in his book found out about the story of my grandfather's brother falling off the horse and about "Ponce". We thought the horse story was only within the family, but I guess it was recorded by the soldiers?
I have not read Mr. Sweeney's book, but I would like to read that section about my great-uncle and great-grandmother. Thanks again for your interest in maintaining this information.
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Post by decoy1 on Jan 2, 2021 13:39:01 GMT -5
I would also like to add that I self-published a book entitled: "Time and Memories" Oral Histories and Stories of a Family of Shinnecock, Apache Indian, Hungarian Ancestry". It is available on Amazon. In this book I record many oral histories of my family including my grandmother, Alice Osceola Bunn Martinez, of the Shinnecock/Montauk tribes, wife of my grandfather, Charles Martine, Jr.
She mentions many stories he related during his life at Fort Sill as a prisoner-of-war, and Hampton Institute, Va. where he played football and did lectures talking about the history of his people the Nde Daa'i (Nednai) Chiricahua Apache. There are also many documents related to his business during the allotment period in Oklahoma around the time when the Chiricahua and Warm Springs, received allotments of land and when many of the tribe moved to the Mescalero Reservation in New Mexico.
Thank you.
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Post by coeurrouge on Jan 3, 2021 9:07:53 GMT -5
Thanks very for your message and welcome. I re-entered the above material because I couldn't find it from before. I am not that active on the blog so I guess it was removed? I also wrote the below material before an lost it because I didn't sign in correctly and the computor thought I was a fake with the same name. I am David Bunn Martine, grandson of Charles Martine, Jr. Charles Martine, Jr. was not "captured". It was his brother who slipped of the horse as a baby in his cradle-board from the horse of Cah-ga-ashen who was riding on an escape from the soldiers. We were told that the baby was rescued by cowboys and taken to the soldiers. He eventually became a civil engineer in Arizona with live stock and became prosperous for a time. His name became "Sam Adams". My grandfather, Charles,Jr. did not ever see his brother. Charles was born in 1886 and died on the Shinnecock Reservation in New York, in 1962. My grandfather had this confirmed by his relative, Vincent Nah-tal-lish, grandson of Victorio who was also living in New York at the time. He said Chin-chee called him "nephew". I guess that was in the Apache way. He said, my great-grandfather, Chin-chee, was a very brave warrior and had been out with Geronimo on the warpath in Arizona and Mexico. We thought within the family that he was killed about two weeks before Geronimo's final surrender. My grandfather is related to the Martines, Chees, Botellas and Sagos at Mescalero. He was also related to Nana, Mangas-Coloradas, Victorio, Chato, Martine, and Harold Dick. My grandfather, Charles. Jr., whose Apache name was "You-gath-leh" meaning - "to look after", which may not be accurate, was born at Ft. Bowie and was raised at Ft. Sill with his brothers and sisters. He was very close to his brother, George Martine. His his brothers and sisters are all buried very close to the Geronimo grave at the Apache cemetery at Fort Sill, Oklhaoma. Old Martine and George and the family moved to Mescalero Apache reservation. As for Ponce being Chin-chee's brother, we never knew this within the family. I have seen the name, "Ponce" mentioned rarely in books, but I did not put the two together. Sometimes more than one Indian can have the same name and of course be mis-identified in photographs. One example is the above photograph of Martine and Kayetah. This has always been printed incorrectly with Martine on the right, when he is obviously on the left. Also, the picture of the pueblo man being used as Cochise, Noche being used as a photo of Taza, and the picture of Victorio is actually supposed to be a picture of "Victor" a White-Mountain Apache, I believe, and not Victorio. Interestingly, the picture of Vincent Nahtalish at Carlisle, Victorio's grandson, resembles the famous photo that has been used as Victorio. I wonder how Mr. Sweeney in his book found out about the story of my grandfather's brother falling off the horse and about "Ponce". We thought the horse story was only within the family, but I guess it was recorded by the soldiers? I have not read Mr. Sweeney's book, but I would like to read that section about my great-uncle and great-grandmother. Thanks again for your interest in maintaining this information. In eve Ball's book : recollection of a warm Spring Apache, Kaywaykla said that Chin-chee and Ponce were brothers. I found in NARA that Chin-chee came back in Ojo Caliente, 14th of june 1876 with Gordo and Perico. at this time he had one wife and three children. best whishes
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Post by decoy1 on Jan 3, 2021 17:16:23 GMT -5
Hello,
Thank you for the informaton. I remember that passage from the book now. I have the book, but forgot that passage. I don't see Chin-chee's list in your above document list but may he is making a C look like a B? Ponce was very well known. Kaywakla is the only mention I have ever seen of the relationshp between Chin-chee and Ponce. I had never seen Chinchis name mentioned in anything else.
The only sister we knew of, of my grandfather by Chinchee was Alice Longfellow Chee. She married Hugh Chee. The whole family moved to Mescalero. There are many descendants today. My grandfather's sisters and brothers with Martine, all died at Ft. Sill, or maybe Chilocco Indian School. They are buried at Ft. Sill. I am assuming that that Chinchi in the book is the same Chin-Chee. I wonder what happened to Ponce? Kaywaykla says he visited him at Ft. Sill many hears later and mentions being at Casa Grandes. Ponce is not mentioned in the Fort Sill Apache geneology document that I have. Maybe he went to Mescalero?
Thank you again.
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Post by coeurrouge on Jan 4, 2021 12:10:32 GMT -5
For me in the list the american wrote Chin-chee as "Shinch" the 6th from the top.
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Post by johnmartin on Jan 5, 2021 18:21:53 GMT -5
Hi dear all,
There is an interesting post of Mithlo on Ponce from the tread `The man in the cap...history finally solved':
Mithlo Full Member ***
Mithlo Avatar
Posts: 242Male
Jun 23, 2012 at 8:25am QuotelikePost OptionsPost by Mithlo on Jun 23, 2012 at 8:25am I must say, I admire everyone's attempt to identify the man in the cap, with many good idea's, comparisons, and opinions. I appreciate Penjady's input on tradition, knowledge, and his "fine eye" for small (but important) details, right down to the red paint! Yet....I have to disagree with everyone on the mans identity. To figure out who he is....one must figure out who he IS NOT first! Only so many men were in Mexico at the time, so one should take out all the Chiricahua....all the Bedonkohe.... all the Nednai and one or two Mescalero's which leaves very few Warm Springs men at all. Of them, take out those well-known and identified in photographs and any too young or too old to be this man (mid-late 40's or so) and there you have a man....of high prestige and rank....that is I believe....most likely....PONCE!!!! He has a record here at Fort Sill listed as Bon-see , Bonsi, or Ponce along with much info about his life; Ponce was Warm Springs Apache, father unknown, mother was Nah-nelth-chithln (Blinking Her Eyes), his brothers were Sathtin (father of "Big Belle" Nicholas), and Chin-chi (father of Charles Martine Jr.), and his sister was Dolores (wife of George Noche). NOTE: After Chin-chi's death his pregnant widow Cah-gah-ahshy married Martine and when the child was born was "later" named after his step-father Charles Martine. FACT: Ponce was closely related to Cochise, said to be a nephew,....this is true....nephew "by marrage" because Ponce's wife was Cochise's neice....Naiche's cousin. She could have been a sister of Adilnadzid, but "more likely" she was a sister of Chie, young son and daughter of Cochise's brother Coyuntara. According to Ponce himself, Chie was not only his good friend but also his brother-in-law. As years went by Ponce was always closely associated to the Naiche family and relatives. FACT: It was Ponce and Chie whom guided Howard to Cochise in 1872. FACT: Ponce, along with Geronimo, Gordo and others were "arrested" by Clum at Ojo Caliente Agency (NM) in 1877, shackled, and hauled in a wagon to San Carlos Arizona. FACT: Ponce is listed time after time in Army and Agency records from 1878 to 1885. FACT: Ponce was present "in Mexico" when his brother Chin-chi was shot and killed, then dragged behind a horse through a large "plain" of cactus in 1885 or early 1886 (?). FACT: Ponce, by his own admission years later at Fort Sill ,was present at Canyon de los Embudos in early 1886, yet chose not to surrender but to fight on with Naiche, Adilnadzid and others, (his wife may have been one of the women captives being healt at Fort Bowie at that time). He claimed to have been captured by several Mexican soldiers at some point in time in 1886, which leads us to HIS story recorded at Fort Sill in 1905--------------When he was captured he was taken to Chihuahua City and put in a large cell with other captives. To his supprise....he knew most of them!!!! They were members of Mangus's band that were captured in late 1885. They had some kind of sickness among them all (Measles or perhaps Smallpox) and NOBODY wanted to "buy" them, transport them or ever go too "close" to them out of fear of this sickness. Ponce said that over half of them died there including Daklugie's two older brothers Delzhinne and Daklegon, in Chihuahua City....NOT Mexico City. Later, he and the few survivors were sent across Sonora to the Gulf of California, shipped across to Baja and sold into slavery. Ponce never saw the others again and refused to mention their names. Ponce lived in slavery many MANY years. When he did escape, he travled north a long time until he crossed out of Mexico into the U.S., southern California, then east a long time to Arizona, and at San Carlos he learned his people and many family members were at Fort Sill in Oklahoma. He walked even more....to New Mexico....then to Texas....and finally Oklahoma and Fort Sill in 1905. He did indeed find family and many old friends here, but he didn't stay with family or even with the Naiche's, he lived with Asa and Ramona and their family until his death (old age) in 1909. He is buried (under the name Bon-see) in the Beef Creek Cemetery near his mother Nah-nelth-chithln (who died in 1907 at about 95 years old). The MAN IN THE CAP.....WARM SPRINGS.....well-known WARRIOR.....highly respected LEADER..... standing proudly up front with Naiche.....Adilnadzid......Geronimo and others....in my opinion is...."most likely"........PONCE!!!!!!!
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Post by johnmartin on Jan 5, 2021 18:32:27 GMT -5
In addition, on page 90 of Eve Ball's Indeh, there is the story of Daglugy of a Spanish speaking man Francisco, who escaped slavery in Baja California and walked from There all the way to Fort Sill to inform Daklugie about the fate of his brothers. Could it be that Daklugie did not wanted to mention the name of Ponce to Eve Ball, as Ponce did not want to mention the names of the others brought into slavery with him?
Regards, John Martin
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Post by decoy1 on Jan 5, 2021 19:38:58 GMT -5
Thank you JohnMartin and coeurrouge for showing me the above information. I guess the names are correct because you can see that the sound of the spellings pronounced are the same as Chin-chee and Ponce. We never knew these people were connected or relatives. We knew more about the Martine side and very little about the Chin-chee side. Thanks again for the info. The history is remarkable. I am going to try to post more pictures. Thanks again.
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Post by coeurrouge on Jan 6, 2021 6:48:07 GMT -5
Hi dear all, There is an interesting post of Mithlo on Ponce from the tread `The man in the cap...history finally solved': Mithlo Full Member *** Mithlo Avatar Posts: 242Male Jun 23, 2012 at 8:25am QuotelikePost OptionsPost by Mithlo on Jun 23, 2012 at 8:25am I must say, I admire everyone's attempt to identify the man in the cap, with many good idea's, comparisons, and opinions. I appreciate Penjady's input on tradition, knowledge, and his "fine eye" for small (but important) details, right down to the red paint! Yet....I have to disagree with everyone on the mans identity. To figure out who he is....one must figure out who he IS NOT first! Only so many men were in Mexico at the time, so one should take out all the Chiricahua....all the Bedonkohe.... all the Nednai and one or two Mescalero's which leaves very few Warm Springs men at all. Of them, take out those well-known and identified in photographs and any too young or too old to be this man (mid-late 40's or so) and there you have a man....of high prestige and rank....that is I believe....most likely....PONCE!!!! He has a record here at Fort Sill listed as Bon-see , Bonsi, or Ponce along with much info about his life; Ponce was Warm Springs Apache, father unknown, mother was Nah-nelth-chithln (Blinking Her Eyes), his brothers were Sathtin (father of "Big Belle" Nicholas), and Chin-chi (father of Charles Martine Jr.), and his sister was Dolores (wife of George Noche). NOTE: After Chin-chi's death his pregnant widow Cah-gah-ahshy married Martine and when the child was born was "later" named after his step-father Charles Martine. FACT: Ponce was closely related to Cochise, said to be a nephew,....this is true....nephew "by marrage" because Ponce's wife was Cochise's neice....Naiche's cousin. She could have been a sister of Adilnadzid, but "more likely" she was a sister of Chie, young son and daughter of Cochise's brother Coyuntara. According to Ponce himself, Chie was not only his good friend but also his brother-in-law. As years went by Ponce was always closely associated to the Naiche family and relatives. FACT: It was Ponce and Chie whom guided Howard to Cochise in 1872. FACT: Ponce, along with Geronimo, Gordo and others were "arrested" by Clum at Ojo Caliente Agency (NM) in 1877, shackled, and hauled in a wagon to San Carlos Arizona. FACT: Ponce is listed time after time in Army and Agency records from 1878 to 1885. FACT: Ponce was present "in Mexico" when his brother Chin-chi was shot and killed, then dragged behind a horse through a large "plain" of cactus in 1885 or early 1886 (?). FACT: Ponce, by his own admission years later at Fort Sill ,was present at Canyon de los Embudos in early 1886, yet chose not to surrender but to fight on with Naiche, Adilnadzid and others, (his wife may have been one of the women captives being healt at Fort Bowie at that time). He claimed to have been captured by several Mexican soldiers at some point in time in 1886, which leads us to HIS story recorded at Fort Sill in 1905--------------When he was captured he was taken to Chihuahua City and put in a large cell with other captives. To his supprise....he knew most of them!!!! They were members of Mangus's band that were captured in late 1885. They had some kind of sickness among them all (Measles or perhaps Smallpox) and NOBODY wanted to "buy" them, transport them or ever go too "close" to them out of fear of this sickness. Ponce said that over half of them died there including Daklugie's two older brothers Delzhinne and Daklegon, in Chihuahua City....NOT Mexico City. Later, he and the few survivors were sent across Sonora to the Gulf of California, shipped across to Baja and sold into slavery. Ponce never saw the others again and refused to mention their names. Ponce lived in slavery many MANY years. When he did escape, he travled north a long time until he crossed out of Mexico into the U.S., southern California, then east a long time to Arizona, and at San Carlos he learned his people and many family members were at Fort Sill in Oklahoma. He walked even more....to New Mexico....then to Texas....and finally Oklahoma and Fort Sill in 1905. He did indeed find family and many old friends here, but he didn't stay with family or even with the Naiche's, he lived with Asa and Ramona and their family until his death (old age) in 1909. He is buried (under the name Bon-see) in the Beef Creek Cemetery near his mother Nah-nelth-chithln (who died in 1907 at about 95 years old). The MAN IN THE CAP.....WARM SPRINGS.....well-known WARRIOR.....highly respected LEADER..... standing proudly up front with Naiche.....Adilnadzid......Geronimo and others....in my opinion is...."most likely"........PONCE!!!!!!! Hi, About the man with the cap, my conclusion (only mine) is the man was Nezulkide, brother of Kathenay, who surrender with Chihuahua because his wife, I think Counteza was captured in 1885 (later known as hulda Kinzhuna, Kinzhuna the youger brother of Nezulkide). About Ponce very interresting information I do not remember. I am agree with Mithlo, he was married in second marriage to Chie's sister around fall 1871. i think he was from loco's gota but when the chihennes were removed to Tularosa, he built his own gota with his family and the one of Sanchez (grandfather of kaywaykla from father's side) and they stayed near the Cuchillo Negro's river in 1872. Ponce seemed to like raiding as Sanchez, delgadito junior (father of Betzinez) and Geronimo. Ponce was arrested with Geronimo in april 1877. He fled San Carlos with the Chihennes in september 1877. He never came back to San carlos and stayed with Victorio until his death. Before today I thought he died during the Victorio's war. But if Bon-see and ponce were the same, which he certainly was so he surivived. As survivors he was certainly with Nana. If he was captured by the Chihuahua, I think he was captured at Casas Grandes in may 1882 or in december 1885. The other times Mexicans captured Chiricahuas they killed all the warriors. And in the list of the chiricahuas captives, made in 1885, his name did not appeared or he had anoter Chiricahua name. I think his wife and maybe children fled with him in 1877. But did they returned to San carlos with Loco in november 1878? Did they have been killed in september 1877 or during the Vicotrio's war? Did they have been captured in Tres Castillos, Casas Grandes (Naiche lost relatives), Sahuaripa (Naiche lost again relatives) or kIlled in Sahuaripa, I look for? The father was certainly Ponce Senior a prominent Chihenne's chief during the 1840's and mainly between 1850 and 1854. In 1854 he was killed by a fellow man duing a binch. He was leading, I think, the gota near Ojo Caliente and his second was Loco in 1854. I think Sahtin was born circa 1835, Ponce circa 1840-1845, Chinche circa 1850 and Dolores just before the death of his father. In the archive I post 3rd of January we can read Shinch (6th from the top), Bence (Bon-see? in 9th from the top) with his mother and a child and Sartin (Sahtin?) at last with a wife and a children. a man named Juan was also here (Cochise's brother ?)
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Post by naiches2 on Mar 15, 2021 16:23:40 GMT -5
For me in the list the american wrote Chin-chee as "Shinch" the 6th from the top. No! This man name is She-neah, Binday and Eyelash Lot's father.
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Post by naiches2 on Jan 24, 2022 15:21:30 GMT -5
Martine Charles Bah-dah-go-gilth-ilth, Martinez, Es-kin-e-la-ta, Pétakot’ił’ił – ‘He spread out something’ (as ashes of campfire, beading etc.); Típékóc’ił – “I am spreading this out” NednaiBedonkohe/Chatto band 1858/61 – Jul 31, 1937 Mescalero Height: 5'7" Exile with Geronimo
Scout: Enlistment 1 - Apr 1, 1884, Company ‘B’ Enlistment 2 [Es-kin-e-la-ta (Chir. E2) 4/85] Enlistment 3 - Jul 7, Ft. Apache 1886 - Oct 8, 1886 Ft. Marion Enlistment 4 - May 8, 1891 Mt. Vernon - May 7, 1896 Ft. Sill Enlistment 5 - May 8, 1896 Ft. Sill - May 31, 1897 Ft. Sill Enlistment 6 - Nov 11, 1911 Ft. Sill - Oct 31, 1914 Ft. Sill [Survey of Conditions of the Indians in the United States, 70th Cong., part 19, page 10506]
Wives: Kes-li-za (??) Holah (??) [Marteen’s wife] Cah-gah-ahshy (1865 – 1916/15) – Widow of Chinche (Killed Mch 8, 1886 in Mexico)
Children: Alice (1881 – 1929) - wife of ? Henry Yah-be-cloh-lay Longfellow (1880 – 1899), Sago and Chee. Name unknown (Oct 11, 1889 – ??) - daughter [Carded Birth] Name unknown (Sep 26, 1890 – ??) - son [Carded Birth] George ? Name unknown (Oct 19, 1890 – ??) – son of Kes-li-za [Carded Birth] George ? George Wratten (Sep 16, 1889/Aug 15, 1890 – Jan 30, 1982) - husband of Lillian Mangus (1895 – 1936) June (Sept 1, 1894 – Sep 3, 1895) - daughter of Cah-gah [Carded Birth] 1st child of Cah-gah-ahshy Fannie (Sept 11, 1896 – post 1900) - daughter of Cah-gah-ahshy [Carded Birth] 4th child of Cah-gah-ahshy Martha (Jul 5, 1898 – 1899) - daughter of Cah-gah-ahshy [Carded Birth] 6th child of Cah-gah-ahshy Roscoe (1898/Jul 26, 1900 – 1901) - son of Cah-gah-ahshy [Carded Birth] 5th child of Cah-gah-ahshy Bertha Jessie (Oct 18, 1904 – Jan 19, 1925) - daughter of Cah-gah-ahshy [Carded Birth] 10th child of Cah-gah-ahshy Norma (1907 – 1908)
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