Crazy Horse.... Miniconjou...?

[frank]

Hey guys! Long time no see... once again I've been d**n busy with my life, travelling, the dog (which is now huge by the way) and now I start school and blaaahh.. well, let's just say it has been a busy year for me...

Anyway heres what I got to say: Little more than month ago when I was going to visit China I got an email from one Scott Dupris, SD. He told me that he had visited my website and asked why I have Crazy Horse listed as Oglala and not Miniconjou..

Well, Scott seems to be a nice fellow and I of course in all my hurry forgot to answer him (allthough I dunno what else to say but CH has always been listed as Oglala). Now, he wrote to me again and I answered him + promised to show you his email... tons of interesting things on it. Here is his email and if you could take a part to the conversation it would be great, say some of your opinions about the matter. I did forward the link to this topic to Scott incase he wants to join in too. Heres the email:

"Hello Frank I have just looked at some of your stuff on Touch The Cloud, my grandfather i have his geneology along with grandpa Crazy Horse also. there both Minicoujou. grandpa Crazy Horse's mother and father are Minicoujou all information on them are at the Cheyenne River reservation. There's no information on our family at any of the other agency's. We Where in hiding for 127 year after the Little Big Horn Battle, because of the Whiteman and the 7th calvery hunting our family our grandfathers change there names but the 7th did'nt know that. There was two brother's the Oldest One Horn then Lone Horn and sister's Rattling Blanket Woman, Good Looking Woman, Looks At Her or later called Affraid Of Her, she help take care of Crandpa Crazy Horse. Spotted Elk was the son of One Horn was around 7 years old when One Horn was gored to death by Buffalo there's a story to that. One Horn was noted for jumping the Buffalo back cutting it's throat then jumping off when Buffalo was going down. Grandpa Lone Horn was noted for being very fast on foot and was documented the he could run down a Buffalo. never been beat in foot race. and Later took his brother's name in Honor of him ONE HORN II. to this day i have a uncle named Gilbert Agneaux that I think still has a state track record for speed. and another grandpa named Grover Scott thats the 3rd generation that's 97 years young.
Well enough of that for now just letting you no that these people are my FAMILY by blood and you should talk to US not make ASSUMPTIONS to who they are.
find the family and get the truth. all the BOOKS on our family members (CRAZY HORSE, SPOTTED ELK ) are all assumptions one author writing Bullshit and another reading it and adding there Bull to sell there Item. there are alot of us from the both side to Crazy Horse. well Pilamiya Scott Dupris/Dupree, Tahca Sapa numpa, 5th generation
Tasunke Witko Tiwahe

Feel free to join in guys, since I don't have a clue what to say to the matter ;D thanks.

ps. If some of you would like to email Scott directly, then email to me and I'll give you his email.

[Dietmar]

Hi Frank,

good to hear from you. Please send greetings to Scott… or perhaps he can read it here by himself.

Well, we had at several times discussions about Crazy Horse… here or back at the old littlebighorn.info boards. Thanks to some members here we are very well aware of the Crazy Horse Tiwahe at Cheyenne River.

I think we all agree that Crazy Horse had strong family ties to the Minicoujou Lakota. The question that has been discussed is if he was more Oglala or more Minicoujou. There have been good arguments for both positions.
I don´t know if there are any new points in this controversy. But perhaps others will chime in.

So for now, very best wishes

Dietmar

[Gary]

Frank & Dietmar

An interesting topic.

I have been thinking about the categories that we use when discussing these issues. Did Crazy Horse see himself as an Oglala or a Miniconjou? Or did he not think of himself in that way at all? Did he think of himself primarily as Lakota?

I first started think about this topic with regard to the Oglala and Cheyennes who lived together. They are sometimes described as Cheyenne Sioux, but did they have this ethnocentric view of themselves? I wonder whether, in reality, Europeans/European Americans have tended to impose artificial demarcations in these situations.

Against this theory is the fact that, to my knowledge, Indian people are very proud of their background and would not want to be thought of as being from a different group or people.

Any contributions to this debate would be gratefully received.

Gary

[ladonna]

I think the fact is that Crazy Horse was Ogala who
had Mnicoujou family, They are all relatived.
Today people want to change the fact that our
people traveled between their relatives.
They made a choice as to whom they fought with
Crazy Horse we know claimed to fight and live
with the Oglala.

[frank]

Great that you all did join in on this one, I hope Scott himself joins into the conversation too when he reads my emails and then he can tell his and his familys side of the story.

[miyelo]

Once again I agree with Ladonna. My Grandpa's Grandpa lived and fought with Crazy Horse. After the surrender and death at Ft. Robinson, Sinte and his relatives, went to Porcupine and hid out and some left after that to Rosebud, and other agencies. But Grandpa does not say he is Crazy Horse ''blood." Nor does he say he is Oglala or Mineconjou or Sicangu etc. He says he is ''Lakota." Funny how all the french lakotas say they are related to CH.

[brock]

I just got back from visiting the Clown family (Old Eagle family had the agency not changed their name). Had the opportunity to witness the Crazy Horse court hearing dow at Rosebud Court for the first time on who are the legal heirs. It was not hard to figure out that the Clown family is indeed in the driver's seat as the rest of those claiming to be relatives talked about dropping the court hearings and allowing everyone to be relatives. A far cry from earlier when everyone was sure they were right and ready to fight to defend it. The primary source being used are probates and in the Clown's case Red Leggins probate (Waglula's fourth wife) seems to hold the key. Normally the Crazy Horse name would have been in public domain. However in the process of getting the Crazy Horse malt liquor off the market, Mothers Against Drunk Driving decided to throw their weight in and went on a fax campaign to all of Congress until a law was passed that forbid the name of Crazy Horse to be used on anything associated with liquor. By doing that they inadvertently made the Crazy Horse name private. So according to the legal minds involved, whoever wins the case will control the estate and use of the name. So it's kind of a big deal (Think Elvis and Marilyn Monroe estates to get a better understanding). Scott is a relative to the Clowns. I have had many discussions with the Clowns and have come away with the impression that Crazy Horse had bigger fish to fry than touting his band name. To say he only led Oglala's into battle is like saying someone from the state of Iowa only led Iowans. Kind of a goofy premise. Touch The Cloud was Minicoujou. Hump's son, also named Hump was Minicoujou and Cheyenne. Both of these men are well known to have ridden with Crazy Horse. For the record the Clown family says he is Minicoujou. I also had the opportunity to sit in on a discussion between Barbara Dull Knife-Young Man Afraid of His Horses and Buzz Young Man Afraid of His Horses and Floyd Clown and Doug War Eagle. One thing that was brought up was a group of stories about Crazy Horse that was interpreted by Pete Catches from several Pine Ridge elders in the 1960s. According to Floyd, Pete told him prior to teaching him the Lakota spiritual ways back in the early 1970s that this book of Lakota stories Pete had interpreted was not the truth (Pete interpreted them accurately but knew there were fabrications) and Pete felt he had to tell Floyd before working with him so they could both walk with truth and honesty. For those who don't know who Pete Catches was, he was one of a tiny handful of Lakota that kept the spiritual side of the Lakota people alive during their darkest days and as the legal ban on their ability to practice their religion openly began to get repealed he was one of the few who was knowledgeable enough to reintroduce the Lakota spirituality to a new generation...something many of the parents of this new generation never experienced themselves between their forced schooling run by the churches and the police constant search for violators that were still practicing their religion. Something most non-Lakota are totally unaware of.

Also as a side note Buzz Young Man Afraid of His Horses complained that Nellie Two Bulls had told stories about his lineal great grandfather (Young Man Afraid of His Horses) in the belief she was related. He says she was not and complained that Nellie's kids were taking up their mother's cause and was greatly annoyed by it and was searching for a way to get his family's oral history out as he believes Nellie Two Bulls misrepresented his great grandfather and gave out bad info that now seems to have taken a life of its own. He said he didn't confront her while she was doing it because she was so old and he pitied her...but now that her children are continuing it he is downright angry.

[Gary]

Hi Brock

Thanks for the update.

Gary

[clw]

I've never heard anything but great respect expressed toward Pete Catches, but I didn't know he had taught Floyd. Gives me a lot to think about. In a good way.

[miyelo]

i have some footage of 'ol Pete Catches. I can post some if you don't spread it around.

btw...on the topic of all this Crazy Horse family/band/stuff...a little known fact for you:Crazy Horse called Iron Shell (sicangu) ''Father" they were very close. This comes from the Little Thunder family whom I am close to. Conquering Bear/Iron Shell/Little Thunder/Red Leaf/and Broken Leg could ALL say they are ''related'' to Crazy Horse. It is all so absurd

[kingsleybray]

Thanks, Miyelo, that's a fascinating detail about Crazy Horse's relationship to Iron Shell. My hunch would be that Iron Shell and Crazy Horse's mother were 'brother' and 'sister' - of course that relationship is more widely defined than the Euro-American equivalent. Such a relationship is implied in that both Iron Shell and Rattle Blanket Woman have been identified with the Ashke band. This tiyoshpaye was associated with the Miniconjou at the beginning of the 1800s, but over the next generation or so many families (including the Iron Shell tiwahe) made a permanent home in the Sichangu (Brule) hoop. Again, a hunch: I think the Ashke tiyoshpaye may have originally been part of the larger Wanhin Wega (Arrow Broken By the Foot) band, one of the main Miniconjou bands. A way to think of how these units nest within each other: a tiyoshpaye kindred like the Ashke might be 100 or 200 people, part of a larger band unit (or oshpaye) up to several hundred strong; a tribe (oyate) like the Miniconjou comprised two or more such bands.

I'm trying to understand how the leading families of the 19th century Lakota were linked up, by blood, marriage, hunka adoption etc. Who was who's father, son, nephew, mother, aunt, in-law, etc., etc. Obviously in the "old days" people were trying to maximise their relationships as far as they could - exactly the opposite of today, where we have families going to court to try to prove there was no connection between them and family -x! I don't think Crazy Horse would have understood at all. Anyway, I was intrigued to read your indication of the connections between the Sichangu leading families above. Can you help us fill out the picture? It would be a big contribution to understanding Lakota history on Lakota terms

Again, thanks for posting the above

Kingsley Bray

[clw]

I do agree, Kingsley. We lose the whole concept of Lakota 'families' as they once were when we try to define them in modern terms.

As an side -- I've always wondered why we don't write Lakota phonetically as it seems so much simpler than all the various alphabets. It's refreshing to read you doing that.

[frank]

Nov 6, 2008 12:23:05 GMT -5 clw said:

As an side -- I've always wondered why we don't write Lakota phonetically as it seems so much simpler than all the various alphabets. It's refreshing to read you doing that.

Ermmm...just out of curiosity, with phonetical writing do you mean that then like Lakota would be written "Lakhota"?

[clw]

True, when the 'h' is added to Lakota it's easier to understand the 'k' comes more from the back of the throat. But it's more obvious in these other examples:

Sicangu/Sichangu
tiospaye/tiyoshpaye
Aske/Ashke

It's also interesting that the Miniconjou people I know write it as 'Mnicoujou'. Written Lakota is really variable.

[frank]

I personally think that it doesn't matter so much how you spell like for example Miniconjou, Minneconjou or Mnicoujou... as long as everyone understands what you mean. If there would now "born" the one and only "correct" way to write these names and words it would be terrible

I got a friend who always spells Lakota as Lakhota and it is fine by me...it just sounds (looks) a bit "showing off" because in all the books we've ever read it has always been written Lakota. It is a matter of a opinion I guess, what ever suits you is the best way as long as you dont just make it up from your head.

...all though, only word I can recognize that is written in phonetic way is just that "Lakhota"...because my own Lakota speaking limits to about that .