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Post by kingsleybray on Mar 20, 2014 4:37:23 GMT -5
If Surrounded Bear is another brother of the Whirlwind Track-Standing Bear-Red Warbonnet bunch, then perhaps he is at the younger end of the span. He married a woman called Red Bird, becomes the father of the White Plume born c. 1850-55. The latter is given the name of his famous relative on his mother's side? His uncle? Or his grandfather?
Thinking aloud!
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Post by kingsleybray on Mar 20, 2014 5:17:21 GMT -5
Just rechecking - could the name "Surrendered in Water" actually be Surrounded in Water? The Lakota name is Mni-o-na-jin-yanpi. That sounds like it means standing in water, brought to a stand - surrounded? And is this then the name Surrounded Bear? The full original name meaning something like (Bear) Brought to a Stand in Water.
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Post by kingsleybray on Mar 22, 2014 3:54:08 GMT -5
Quoting from Ephriam abv.:
"3. In the next family (#497) is a man named Surrendered in Water (b. c1830) and his wife Fisher Woman and a daughter named White Face. This may be the same family listed in the 1890 census, in the true Oyuhpe band, as Standing Bear (b. c1829) with a wife Fisher Woman and a daughter named Face. He is of the right age to be the brother of Red War Bonnet, but could also be a later male relative.
4. In the 1890 census, there is a second younger man named Standing Bear (b. c1856), just three families away from the elder Standing Bear; presumably the two are related in some way. This younger Standing Bear (c1859-1933) was interviewed several times, including by Eli Ricker, Edmond Meany, Walter Camp, and finally by John G. Neihardt. He told Neihardt that he was born on the Tongue River in the Winter When the Children Died of Coughing (1859).
5. Red War Bonnet mentioned a brother named Whirlwind Track. This is very likely the same person mentioned by Black Elk (DeMallie, The Sixth Grandfather, p. 149-150) as Whirlwind Chaser, whom he described as this younger Standing Bear's uncle. According to Black Elk, Whirlwind Chaser was "Standing Bear's mother's brother" and a noted medicine man.”
About the younger Standing Bear, that is Stephen Standing Bear (c. 1859-1933), I had a letter from the late Brother Simon at Holy Rosary, date Oct. 29, 1991. In it he asked me for what I knew about Stephen Standing Bear, and shared some family research he's put together. Since this may help extend this thread, here it is:
"Right now am not sure if he was classified as a Minnieconjou or not but as a youth spent lots of his time with Oglalas and lived his adult life with the Oglalas. "I am trying to get information about the following people and to see how IF they were related to Stephen Standing Bear. "I think his father was Brave Thunder but not sure about that. His mother was Good Woman. "People I am interested in getting more information such as relatives, band affiliation, etc. etc would be the following. High Eagle Red Shirt Yellow Horse, Joe Dog on Hill Prairie Chicken Anna Standing Bear "The following people may have been enrolled at Cheyenne River. Good Woman One Skunk Frost Dog on Hill Prairie Chicken Anna Standing Bear. "There have been rumors that Standing Bear was married young to a Sioux woman named Red Elk whom may have died at Wounded Knee. We are still checking that out. "Rumors have it that Standing Bear and Red Elk had a daughter Anna (Yellow Calf) and she died most likely from TB as a young lady but are still searching for proof. "About 1890 Standing Bear was in Europe with Buffalo Bill (?) wild West Show and met and married Louise Renick from Vienna, Austria."
Interesting stuff. Today we now some more about some of these people and names. One thing I've learned is that High Eagle and his son One Skunk were Miniconjou, belonged to the Wakpokiyan band, and that One Skunk, Owl King, and Crazy Heart (the son of Lame Deer) were all "first cousins".
Two men named Dog on Hill were living in Touch the Clouds's tiyoshpaye - the Wakpokiyan, again - in January 1878. One accompanied Touch the Clouds back to Cheyenne River, one stayed behind with the Oglalas and joined Young Man Afraid of His Horse's band, the Payabya.
Much more to talk about and discuss, but wanted to put on this information.
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Post by gregor on Apr 14, 2014 13:13:49 GMT -5
I found this - to me so far unknown - photo on the internet. Is this Big Road?
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Post by grahamew on Apr 14, 2014 14:23:05 GMT -5
I have this picture without the text somewhere in my files, If I find it, I'll post it. I believe it's credited to Moreledge; there's at least one other photo that used the same backdrop - of Fast Horse, an Oglala in military uniform. Edit: I've found it. Flying Horse, apparently, though there's certainly a resemblance to the photo posted on the previous page.
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Post by kingsleybray on Apr 14, 2014 14:54:56 GMT -5
Flying Horse was an Oglala relative/'brother'of Sitting Bull the Good. According to John Colhoff he belonged to the Spleen band. He was serving as a scout with the 7th Cavalry at Wounded Knee, he "got too close and received a deadly shot": Ed Janis statement to Judge Rioker.
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Post by gregor on Apr 14, 2014 15:07:20 GMT -5
Sorry, but I strongly believe this man is Big Road. Take a look at the scar at his mouth. Toksha Gregor
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Post by grahamew on Apr 15, 2014 10:07:33 GMT -5
Thanks, Kingsley. I was under the impression that quite a bit of the Trager/Moreledge/Grabill stuff was taken just after Wounded Knee, and I'm with you on this, Gregor, Looks like Big Road to me and, let's face it, it wouldn't be the first Trager/Moreledge/Grabill photo to have its subject incorrectly identified. Incidentally, there's another photo taken with this backdrop - of an Oglala scout, Robert White - this time credited to Trager in Eyewitness to Wounded Knee.
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Post by Dietmar on Apr 15, 2014 17:00:42 GMT -5
I agree with Gregor and Grahame.
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Post by hreinn on Sept 29, 2017 22:57:52 GMT -5
One Skunk, Owl King, and Crazy Heart (the son of Lame Deer) were all "first cousins". Were One Skunk and Owl King brothers ? Is it known who were their grandparents and parents (besides High Eagle as father of One Skunk and Wounded Bull (Crazy Heart's paternal grandfather) was perhaps the grandfather) ? Was One Skunk (son of High Eagle) the same person as "Little Ground (Little Skunk ?)" who belonged to Wagleza-owin (Gartersnake Earring) tiyoshpaye ?
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Post by hreinn on Jun 15, 2021 19:46:13 GMT -5
Just rechecking - could the name "Surrendered in Water" actually be Surrounded in Water? The Lakota name is Mni-o-na-jin-yanpi. That sounds like it means standing in water, brought to a stand - surrounded? And is this then the name Surrounded Bear? The full original name meaning something like (Bear) Brought to a Stand in Water. Yes, the correct translation of the name Mni-o-na-jin-yanpi seems to be "Surrounded in Water" According to Ullrich's New Lakota Dictionary: Mni means water. onážiŋyAŋ (as a variant of nážiŋyAŋ) means to surround sb, to corner sb, outflank, hold at bay. Ullrich's Dictionary does not give a translation for the word surrender. Comparison of the 2 versions, Kingsley / Ullrich, part by part: o-na-jin-yanpi / onážiŋyAŋ part 1: o / o part 2: na / ná part 3: jin / žiŋ part 4: yan / yAŋ part 5: pi / - This -pi ending is probably some grammar thing. According to Ullrich's New Lakota Dictionary, the ending -pi can have several different meanings: 1 plural indicator 2 passive voice indicator 3 nominalizer (makes nouns of some verbs) So yes, there is a logic in the spectrum Surrendered in Water - Surrounded in Water - Surrounded Bear. As I understand the writings of Kingsley Bray and Ephriam Dickson in this thread and in the threads Oyuhpe and Red War Bonnet. There were 2 males with the name Surrounded Bear and 1 male with the name Surrendered in Water (= Surrounded Bear ?). Surrounded Bear 1 (assumingly born ca. 1780) = married to Red Bird/Red Wing. Father of White Feather/White Plume. Grandfather of Big Road 1. Surrounded Bear 2 (assumingly born ca. 1810) = married to Good Woman (daughter of Shoulder). Brother-in-law to Whirlwind Chaser/Whirlwind Track, Standing Bear and Red Warbonnet. Together Surrounded Bear 2 and Good Woman had Stephen Standing Bear (getting his name from his mother's brother Standing Bear). Surrendered in Water (born ca. 1830) = married to Fisher Woman. Father of White Face. Is it now know if and how these men were related ? i.e. Surrounded Bear 1, Surrounded Bear 2, Surrendered in Water. If so, is it possible to reveal that here ?
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Post by hreinn on Jun 22, 2021 11:21:42 GMT -5
Correction: In the post above, instead of Big Road 1, it should be Big Road 2. Surrounded Bear 1 (assumingly born ca. 1780) = married to Red Bird/Red Wing. Father of White Feather/White Plume. Grandfather of Big Road 1. There were at least 3 males within Oyuhpe with the name Big Road (Chanku Tanka / Čȟaŋkú Tȟáŋka). Big Road 1 (b.ca.1800-1810): Shirt Wearer 1845-?. Big Road 2 (b.1834, d.1892): Wicasa Itancan 1870s-1892. Son of White Plume/White Feather/Flying Feather/Bird's Down. Big Road 3 (aka. Chase Alone) (b.1863 or 1867, d.ca.1910-1930): Wicasa Itancan 1892-1910. Son of Big Road 2. Big Road 2 and Big Road 3 belonged to Wakan wicoti among Oyuhpe tiyoshpaye.
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Post by nukemm33 on Jan 2, 2024 12:59:15 GMT -5
Just rechecking - could the name "Surrendered in Water" actually be Surrounded in Water? The Lakota name is Mni-o-na-jin-yanpi. That sounds like it means standing in water, brought to a stand - surrounded? And is this then the name Surrounded Bear? The full original name meaning something like (Bear) Brought to a Stand in Water. Yes, the correct translation of the name Mni-o-na-jin-yanpi seems to be "Surrounded in Water" According to Ullrich's New Lakota Dictionary: Mni means water. onážiŋyAŋ (as a variant of nážiŋyAŋ) means to surround sb, to corner sb, outflank, hold at bay. Ullrich's Dictionary does not give a translation for the word surrender. Comparison of the 2 versions, Kingsley / Ullrich, part by part: o-na-jin-yanpi / onážiŋyAŋ part 1: o / o part 2: na / ná part 3: jin / žiŋ part 4: yan / yAŋ part 5: pi / - This -pi ending is probably some grammar thing. According to Ullrich's New Lakota Dictionary, the ending -pi can have several different meanings: 1 plural indicator 2 passive voice indicator 3 nominalizer (makes nouns of some verbs) So yes, there is a logic in the spectrum Surrendered in Water - Surrounded in Water - Surrounded Bear. As I understand the writings of Kingsley Bray and Ephriam Dickson in this thread and in the threads Oyuhpe and Red War Bonnet. There were 2 males with the name Surrounded Bear and 1 male with the name Surrendered in Water (= Surrounded Bear ?). Surrounded Bear 1 (assumingly born ca. 1780) = married to Red Bird/Red Wing. Father of White Feather/White Plume. Grandfather of Big Road 1. Surrounded Bear 2 (assumingly born ca. 1810) = married to Good Woman (daughter of Shoulder). Brother-in-law to Whirlwind Chaser/Whirlwind Track, Standing Bear and Red Warbonnet. Together Surrounded Bear 2 and Good Woman had Stephen Standing Bear (getting his name from his mother's brother Standing Bear). Surrendered in Water (born ca. 1830) = married to Fisher Woman. Father of White Face. Is it now know if and how these men were related ? i.e. Surrounded Bear 1, Surrounded Bear 2, Surrendered in Water. If so, is it possible to reveal that here ? I'm trying to reconcile the family connections as I'm related to Fast Whirlwind and his mothers name is listed as Good Wing. I couldn't find a Red Wing on any of the census records so I'm wondering if perhaps Good Wing is Red Wing since she is both listed as the mother of Fast Whirlwind (the younger born about 1851) and her grandson's name is na-jin-yanpi (listed as Surrounded, born about 1890).
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