Northern Cheyenne population 1860-65

[carlo]

Am trying to understand the population numbers of the Northern Cheyennes between ca. 1860-65. Have searched but so far got conficting information, and most is on the entire Chyenne people, not just the Northern Cheyennes. Can anyone point me in the right direction for a reliable source?

[kingsleybray]

In June 1866 chief Cut Nose told the treaty commission at Fort Laramie that there were "a few over two hundred [lodges]" of Northern Cheyennes, "called the Eating Band", i.e the Omisis or Eaters. That probably converts to 1200-1300 people. There seems to be modest growth over the next decade, possibly partly accounted for by people moving from the Southern Cheyennes. By the time of the Great Sioux War, there seem to be about 220 + lodges of Northern Cheyennes. Hope this helps.

[carlo]

That's perfect Kingsley, thank you very much.

[Mike]

Hi Carlo, I highly recommend John H Moore's book The Cheyenne Nation: A Social and Demographic History, it has as much as will ever now be known regarding Northern Cheyenne population, other than quotes like Kingsley mentioned and agency counts. For the Omisis band alone, not using the name as a meaning for the whole of the Northern Cheyenne which is quite common these days, Moore has a figure of 892 people in a graph that begins in 1800, and that number climbed slowly until the Ft Robinson Massacre, then it recovered from that. The Totoimana he has at 160 people, the Suhtai at 216, but there was only half that in the north, and the Oivimana at 292, also half of which were in the north. So by this measure the Northern Cheyenne were at 1,306 which matches well with Cut Nose's report.

Moore expressed surprise the Suhtai number was so low and I think it was closer to 300 than 200, this simply is based off my research which has focused a lot on the Suhtai, and using lodge count numbers and then applying average persons per lodge deduced from other solid lodge and person counts from Lakota and Arapaho, thus it is more likely they were at least the size of the Totoimana in the north. So 1,400 or so would be the high end and this matches well with Northern Cheyenne numbers (using lodge counts) in 1876 and '77.

The Northern Cheyenne and the Cheyenne as a whole were never large compared to their allies and enemies and the phrase 'punched above their weight' applies wholeheartedly to this people.

[carlo]

Thanks Ghost Eagle. Yes I have his book, but his table is impossible to read. The numbers are only given for the ends of the spectrum, so 1800 and 1892. Everything else is just a bloc, so really nothing concrete to derive from it. Not knocking Moore's work, it's just not usable imo to help understand what the N.Cheyenne population was in ca. 1860.

[kingsleybray]

one of the most interesting contemporary statements gives a good impression of how the Northern Cheyenne fit into the bigger tribal picture. It's a report to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs by Col Wm O. Collins, dated May 12, 1865, just as Collins was retiring from command at Fort Laramie. It's printed in Agnes Wright Spring, Caspar Collins: The Life and Exploits of an Indian Fighter of the Sixties (reprint Uni. Nebraska Press, 1969), pp 164-168.

Here's Collins' Cheyenne breakdown: "The Cheyennes number about 500 lodges. Of these about 350 lodges have generally remained south, ranging from the Platte to the Arkansas, and from the base of the Black Hills to near the center of Kansas and Nebraska. Most of them went north towards Powder River after the Mud Springs and Rush Creek fights, where they probably now are. The balance of the tribe [i.e. the Northern Cheyennes] has been for some time on the . . . [ellipsis in original] of the Powder River about 100 miles north of Deer Creek. About 100 lodges under the chief Gray Head are reported friendly. The chief is certainly so, and is both sensible and reliable. The others, consisting of about eighty lodges, have been for some time hostile."

I think despite the ambiguity, 150 or 180 Northern Cheyenne lodges, a total tribal population of 530 lodges, about 3300 people in 1865 is fairly accurate, at least in line with trends we can follow into the reservation period.

I think but am not sure that the distinction Collins makes may be between the main Omisis (Eaters) band proper, at this stage (pre-Sand Creek) mainly friendly to the USA, and a smaller, more conservative Suhtai band, considered "hostile".

In 1867 Indian Office Supt Denman wrote a report embodying information from former trader G. P. Beauvais. He says that before the present war there were about 150 lodges of Northern Cheyenne; now (second half 1867) there are about 100 lodges, chiefs Little Wolf and Fire Dog. This I think is the main Suhtai band. The other part of the Northern Cheyennes were in the Republican river country summer-early fall 1867.

[hreinn]

In 1855, we have similar numbers and ratios for Northern Cheyenne and Southern Cheyenne as Kingsley mentioned above from 1865 and 1867.
It is also similar to the estimate of Ghost Eagle above.

Twiss reported 1400 Cheyenne at his agency (Northern Cheyenne).
Whitfield reported 3150 Cheyenne at his agency (Southern Cheyenne).
In total 4550 Cheyenne.

So, Northern Cheyenne were ca. 1/3 of the Cheyenne nation in 1855.
If we estimate there were between 7 and 10 persons in a lodge.
It calculates to:
Northern Cheyenne 140-200 lodges.
Southern Cheyenne 315-450 lodges
In total 455-650 lodges.
The median of 455 and 650 is 553 lodges.

See Berthrong's book "The Southern Cheyennes", page 132 (1986 edition)

[carlo]

Thank you all, very helpful.

I am a bit wary of numbers given by agents like Twiss (for known reasons), although they seem to be somewhat consistent with the other numbers given above. As a military man, W. Collins' numbers should be more trustworthy, similar to Cut Nose's total.

Here are two more taken from the Annual Reports to the Comm of Indian Affairs:
1865, Dakota Superintendency, "Cheyennes" [N &S total], numbering 700 lodges & 4,200 souls
1866, Upper Platte Agency, "northern Cheyennes", numbering 1,800 souls

Interestingly, if we compare Moore's 1800 (year) number from Ghost Eagle's post with Twiss (1855), Collins (1865), and Cut Nose (1866), it seems that the N. Cheyenne population did not fluctuate much at all over the span of several decades.

[carlo]

One more: ARCIA 1867, Upper Platte Agency, "Northern Cheyennes" 150 lodges, 900 people
So the number given by the agent went from 1,800 in 1866 to half that a year later.

[Mike]

This is a great thread for future referencing.

Using the very thorough count in 1861 at Upper Arkansas Agency for the Southern Cheyenne we have: 1,380 total; 425 men, 480 women, 475 children; 250 lodges, that makes 5.52 souls per lodge at: 1.7 men, 1.92 women, 1.9 children per lodge.

5.52 per lodge at 1.7 men, 1.92 women, 1.9 children is what I use on my population spreadsheet. Moore used 5.56, the army used 5 from at least the later 60’s into the ‘70’s and agents used closer to 8.
The lower number I feel represents battle losses better, but the higher number represents a band or nation after a catastrophic loss, like Sand Creek, where survivors are sharing lodges due to a loss of lodges.

I am certain this 1861 count at the upper Flint Arrowpoint River did not include any of the 100-120 lodges of the Dog Soldiers, nor does it include the Southern Suhtai of Black Shin/Gray Beard at 50 lodges, who always camped and moved with the Dogmen.

In late 1864 as the southern bands arrived in the north after Sand Creek, Julesburg and Mud Springs, George Bent mentions that Gray Beard had fifty-lodges in his band. By the estimates I use that's 86 warriors 97 women/elderly and 96 children, 276 people total.

Gray Beard is mentioned having 80 lodges and leading 500 warriors during the Red River War and there were 104 lodges in his camp when Lt. Baldwin attacked him on McClellan creek, but other groups attached themselves to the Suhtai chief during this time, a number of actual Dog Soldiers, some of the Heviksnipahis band and Lakotas. He is listed as a Dog Soldier chief/warrior in many publications and websites and this is common for any of the known leaders who camped with the Dogmen, regardless of whether they had joined the Dogmen outright or not. Dog Soldier is simply applied to anyone who took part in a raid or battle wherein the Dog Soldiers were present, one mostly became a Dog Soldier by proxy.

Grey Beard was actually a headman of the Bowstring warrior society, along with Little Bull, Medicine Water and Black Moon and many others, for the Bowstrings were predominantly Suhtai during the 60’s and 70’s, just like the Elks were Suhtai in the north.

Adding the Dog Soldiers proper (sans Lakota, Suhtai) at 111 lodges (it was under 90 by 1869) and the S. Suhtai at 50 lodges gives us 161 lodges, 274 warriors and 889 people. The Dog Soldier lodge counts of 150 to 170 have the Suhtai counted with them, the ones that are over 300 have the 100-140 lodges of Lakota included.

Combined with the 1861 Upper Arkansas count that’s 2,263 for what is usually called in most books (incorrectly) the Southern Cheyenne, either way, does not include the Northern Cheyenne.

Add the 1,300 count that seems to be the northern bands mean number; we get 3,563 for the Cheyenne whole and I feel comfortable with this estimate.

Overall the most common guesstimate for the number of persons per lodge across all the reported, anecdotal & memoir quotes from Clark to Dodge to Mooney et al, that I've found, is between 5 and 6 people per lodge. I think this was accurate for the period of conflicts.

In 1870’s the officially army estimated camps at 5 per lodge, but the agent Twiss used 7 or 8, I believe any justification for that would include two grandparents, it still works out to roughly 2 warriors per lodge, one older one younger, the Cheyennes did generally attempt to respect their 10 year birth rule. IMO using 8 per lodge would only increase the women, elderly and children unless one is accounting for a recent loss of lodges.

Personally I use 1.7 men, 1.92 women, 1.9 children per lodge when making my estimates for the war years, I think it's a good account for losses to death and severe wounds.
Btw on Moore’s Suhtai estimate of 216, just the 50 lodges of Black Shin/Gray Beard alone, even using my low multiplier, is more than what Moore came up with for the Suhtai as a whole, although that was an 1800 baseline, yet even he admitted his Suhtai numbers felt low, for they were.  
How I wish he was still with us.

I have always understood that there were more Suhtai lodges in the north than the south, so I would imagine 60 lodges in the north in 1865, that's 331 people using 1.7m, 1.92w and 1.9c per lodge and 609 people for the whole manhao (meaning north and south together).

There is the issue of Turkey Leg, a northern council chief (after 1864) who had 50 lodges and moved between the north and the south regularly, he was good friends with Pawnee Killer (Lakota) who moved back and forth as well. I've never been able to find out what band Turkey Leg was from, even in Powell's Sacred Mountain there is no answer for his band, so it must be the Omisis proper, because 50 lodges is nearly 300 people and no other band could contain his manhastoz.

I personally believe he is accounted for in Moore’s roughly 900 souls that make up the Omisis proper.

One way of finding a Northern Cheyenne count would be to take the 1,380 of the southern division and add the central division’s 607, Dogmen, and the 276, Gray Beard’s Suhtai, and take the resulting 2,263 and subtract that from the total Cheyenne nation count that one feels is the most accurate.

My estimate (Summer 1865):

Northern Division:
Northern Cheyenne (incl. Suhtai): 1,300

Central Division
Dog Soldiers (incl. Suhtai): 900

Southern Division
Southern Cheyenne: 1,200 (counting 200 losses at Sand Creek)

Tsėhéstáno: 3,400

[Gary]

Good thread. Thank you all for drawing my attention to this information.

[kingsleybray]

sorting thru some old notebooks I find the following reconstruction of Cheyenne tribal population in summer 1877. From contemporary agency and military records.

Southern Cheyennes enrolled at Cheyenne & Arapaho Agency, Indian Territory, July 14, 1877:

men 522
women 820
children 957

TOTAL 2299

Northern Cheyennes enrolled at Cheyenne & Arapaho Agency, Indian Territory, August 6, 1877:

men 235
women 312
children 386

TOTAL 933

Northern Cheyennes on leaving Red Cloud Agency May 28, 1877, counted at 972.
Suggests 39 people left this group on way south to Indian Territory.

Northern Cheyennes who were allowed to remain at Red Cloud Agency with Oglalas, as of May 28, 1877:
150 people

Northern Cheyennes with Lame Deer camp in May 1877 (headman White Hawk):
20 people who surrendered at Red Cloud Agency June 9, 1877


Northern Cheyennes who surrendered April 1877 at Tongue River Cantonment to Gen. Miles;
approximately 270

Totalling all these people creates a tribal total figure of 3712 people. It may be slightly higher if other people with White Hawk did not surrender at Red Cloud Agency, but 3700-3800 should be the right frame for the tribal population in 1877.

[hreinn]

Apr 4, 2020 21:32:07 GMT -5 Mike said:

There is the issue of Turkey Leg, a northern council chief (after 1864) who had 50 lodges and moved between the north and the south regularly, he was good friends with Pawnee Killer (Lakota) who moved back and forth as well. I've never been able to find out what band Turkey Leg was from, even in Powell's Sacred Mountain there is no answer for his band, so it must be the Omisis proper, because 50 lodges is nearly 300 people and no other band could contain his manhastoz.

I personally believe he is accounted for in Moore’s roughly 900 souls that make up the Omisis proper.

Here is an alternative suggestion for Turkey Leg's manhao.
If we assume that Turkey Leg was a Suhtai.
Then Turkey Leg was fluctating between North and South between Northern Suhtai and Southern Suhtai.
From what I have read, Northern Suhtai sometimes/often camped with Omisis and Southern Suhtai sometimes/often camped with Dog Soldiers.
If Turkey Leg belonged to Suhtai, it could explain the conflicting numbers of Suhtai and explain the low number of Suhtai, since Turkey Leg was fluctuating between North and South with 50 lodges.

My guess is that Turkey Leg and Pawnee Killer were more than friends, there could have been some kind of relations, either directly or through their wifes.
One way to figure out relations and manhao of Turkey Leg, is to understand the background of Pawnee Killer.
Since Pawnee Killer was so often with Southern Cheyenne (Dog Soldiers + Masikota), Pawnee Killer must have some relation to this part of Cheyenne.
I guess either his mother or his wife were partly or fully Cheyenne.
I would bet on Pawnee KIller's mother.

Southern Suhtai-Dog Soldiers relations of Turkey Leg could connect to Pawnee Killer's Dog Soldiers relations.

What is known about Pawnee Killer's relations is only from his father side and from the limited amount of information we have, all were Oglala.
Pawnee Killer belonged to his father Skokpa wicoti, which was at various times part of either Payabya Oglala tiyoshpaye or Tapislecha Oglala tiyoshpaye.
Pawnee Killer gets associated with Kiyuksa Oglala because 2 of his daughters married to Kiyuksa Oglala males.
a) Chief Woman married to George Little Wound, son of the famous Little Wound. So Pawnee Killer and Little Wound were (co-)fathers-in-law.
b) Unnamed daughter of Pawnee Killer married to Lone Bull.

Matters regarding Pawnee Killer's wife or wives are more complicated, but indicates mainly Oglala origin.
Kingsley Bray mentioned once that Pawnee Killer married to 2 daughters of Whistler, who was Oglala. I do not know more about that.
Lone Bull in an interview with Donald Collier said Pawnee Killer married to Flys Above, who was daughter of Little Bald Eagle and they seem to Oglalas.
6 out of 7 Flys Above brothers and sons of Little Bald Eagle were said to belong to Skokpa, so it seems to be a Skokpa family.
That raises eyebrows, because that means a marriage of male Skokpa (Pawnee Killer) and female Skokpa (Flys Above), which could mean marriage of relatives.
Unless Flys Above was not "fully Skokpa", which opens the possiblility for Cheyenne relations.

[kingsleybray]

I think you may be right, hreinn, about Pawnee Killer's Cheyenne connection. From 1867 there are some statements that bear on this, they mention he had Cheyenne people in his band. I will dig them out and transcribe.

[grahamew]

According to Donald Danker (The North Brothers and the Pawnee Scouts in The Nebraska Indian Wars Reader), Pawnee Killer's mother was captured somewhere near the Republican after Summit Springs and spoke to Frank North through a Ponca scout who translated her Lakota into Pawnee for a Pawnee scout to translate into English. Doesn't rule her out as being Cheyenne, I suppose, as she could no doubt speak Lakota too. The source he gives for this is military correspondence