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Post by ouroboros on Mar 11, 2020 4:05:23 GMT -5
Comanche vs Apache These two peoples have being fighting since the first half of the XVIII century. The Comanches pushed the Lipan and Mescalero Apaches from the Plains after a nearly hundred years of warfare. The longstanding enmity between those two is reflected by the names by which they described one another – the Comanches called the Mescalero and Lipan Apaches “esikwita” (gray excrement) whilst the Apaches called the Comanches Indassene (from indas, enemy). There is a discussion which people being the better fighters, and most scholars are the opinion that the Comanches – better horsemen – were victorious on the open plains, while the Apaches were superior in the mountain terrain: Sherry Robinson (Apache Voices, p. 134): Ernest Wallace, E. Adamson Hoebel (The Comanches: Lords of the South Plains): This opinion is shared by some Chiricahua Apaches: Quoted after: The Chiricahua Apache, 1846-1876: From War to Reservation, p. 55. The Mescaleros were a particularly dangerous enemy for the Comanches in the mountainous regions of Northern Mexico. As Brian DeLay puts it (War of thousand deserts, p. 271):
Conflicts between these two tribes resulted in many deaths on both sides – some important Comanche chiefs died in fight against the Apaches: Bajo el Sol died fighting the Mescaleros, and Yellow Wolf was killed by the Lipans in 1854. There are many interesting accounts on Comanche-Apache intertribal warfare, and I will put some informations in the future.
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Post by ouroboros on Mar 15, 2020 2:18:40 GMT -5
The question which of these two peoples produced better warriors is a matter of dispute. George W. B. Evans, Mexican Gold Trail: The Journal of a Forty-niner, p. 116, had a poor opinion on the Apaches, whom he considered inferior to the Comanches in almost every aspect:
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Post by ouroboros on Mar 17, 2020 1:48:20 GMT -5
Mostly the Lipan and Mescalero battled the Comanches, but sometimes the Chiricahuas also fought the Indassene. An interesting info can be found in Jason Betzinez's book "I Fought with Geronimo,". On p. 166 he says that:
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Post by ouroboros on Apr 3, 2020 4:25:20 GMT -5
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Post by ouroboros on Apr 7, 2020 4:32:56 GMT -5
Interestingly, when Lipan Apaches attacked Mexicans or Americans their used some stratagems to deceive their pursuers and make them believe some other ethnic group actually carried the attack. One of such stratagems included leaving Comanche arrows in the place of the attack. As Andrée F. Sjoberg, Lipan Apache Culture in Historical Perspective, p. 95 writes: Sjoberg paper is free for download from JSTOR: www.jstor.org/stable/3628495?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
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Post by ouroboros on Jul 15, 2020 9:35:01 GMT -5
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Post by ouroboros on Oct 12, 2020 4:02:21 GMT -5
An interesting information I have found in W. Gifford's, CULTURE ELEMENT DISTRIBUTIONS: XII APACHE-PUEBLO, p. 170. It is a collection of field notes taken during work in reservation. It sheds some light on Mescalero-Comanche warfare:
It supports the aforementioned opinions that Comanches were no match for Apaches in mountainious terrain.
Idem, p. 172. Mescalero Apaches scalped only the Comanches as an act of retaliation:
Ibidem, p. 172:
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Post by ouroboros on Nov 12, 2020 17:08:52 GMT -5
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Post by ouroboros on Nov 20, 2020 12:09:34 GMT -5
The Comanche and Lipans were formidable oponents and they fought many skirmisches and battles. Two best documented skirmisches: (1) April 7, 1838 Texas Republic. A skirmish between Lipan Apaches and Comanches along the Nueces results in eight Lipans killed: library.uta.edu/borderland/event/384(2) Date: July/August 1840, Texas Republic. A party of Lipan Indians engage Comanches on Rio Frio, killing thirteen. Seven or eight Comanches are sent as prisoners to Bexar: library.uta.edu/borderland/event/1198
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Post by ouroboros on Jan 3, 2021 8:17:22 GMT -5
In 1840 the Comanches and Kiowas on the one side, and the Cheyennes and Arapahos on the other agreed to cease warfare and made peace. For the Cheyennes and Arapahos it gave a significant advantage, beacause they achieved access to the main source of horses - Spanish Southwest and Mexico. Before the peace treaty the Comanches and Kiowas formed a barrier and breaking it was a dangerous feat: books.google.pl/books?id=8_ejE8dGOcMC&pg=PA72&dq=Comanches+Cheyennes+1840+peace&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwink9ag6f_tAhVIEncKHS7PAo0Q6AEwAXoECAQQAg#v=onepage&q=Apache&f=falseThe Cheyennes got free access to New Mexico, and together with the Comanches and Kiowas they began fighting the Mescalero Apaches. There were some hostilities between Mescalero Apaches and the three tribes, and the federal agents tried to pursue an peace agreement between them: books.google.pl/books?id=yoZCx5MnOO0C&pg=PA92&dq=New+Mexico+Cheyenne+Mescalero&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx8P6Rk9rbAhVBsywKHcnNBBIQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=New%20Mexico%20Cheyenne%20Mescalero&f=false 'Indian agents, anxious to arrange a truce between and among warring tribes of Ute and Mescalero Indians on the one side, and Navajo, Kiowa and Cheyenne Indians on the other, held a council at the Achuleta Agency in northern New Mexico in late summer of 1858'.
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Post by chicheman on Jan 3, 2021 14:55:02 GMT -5
Thanks ouroboros, that is great informations, thanks for your efforts of research. Looks like there was some alliance between Lipan-Apaches and Tonkawas during the 19th century and they also did intermarry to some degree. Some informations to find in a new book on the Tonkawas: The Texas Tonkawas, Stanley S. McGowen, 2020, State House Press, TX. Tribal History until 21. Century. Pages 161-162: (at Powwows) Each tribe performs certain dances particular to their culture.For instance, the Tonkawa dance and sing a special song honoring the Lipan Apaches, old allies and no longer recognized as a tribe by the United States government. (Though we know that their are descendants among the Mescalero Nation and of two groups calling themselves Lipan Apaches in Texas). The Tonkawas, Mescalero Apaches and possible Kiowa-Apache tribes absorbed the survivors of the scattered Lipan Apaches years ago. Anyway, both Lipan and Tonkawas are reported to have been superb scouts, fighters and hunters and horsemen, fighting Comanches and Kiowas and acting as scouts for the US Army during the wars on the southern Plains. Sources to find in Sherry Robinson, I fought a good fight - A History of the Lipan Apaches, Univ. of North Texas Press. Best chicheman
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Post by ouroboros on Jan 3, 2021 17:27:28 GMT -5
Thank you for your kind words, Chicheman
I am very grateful for the news on the book on Tonkawa tribe! A must have for me.
I will put some more infos on the warfare between Comanches and Apaches in the near future.
With best wishes, Ouroboros
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Post by ouroboros on Jan 9, 2021 7:02:51 GMT -5
[...] the Comanches called the Mescalero and Lipan Apaches “esikwita” (gray excrement) whilst the Apaches called the Comanches Indassene (from indas, enemy). There is more infos how the Apacheans decribed the Comanches:
The Lipan Apache called them "'Inaatsii'ìì"
The Mescalero Apache called them "'Indaa'tse'õde" or "Indassene". The meaning of the former is disputed. Possible meanings:
1) "the people who follow after white people"
2) "the people who follow after enemies."
3) "the enemy people" or "the people of enemies"
The third is the most possible explanation for two reasons: (1) the Mescalero suffix "õde, - éõde, -néõde,or -héõde" means "the people of", and (2) in Apache Legends & Lore the Comanches are described as "The Enemy People".
And for Apache names for foreign people like the Comanche, Cheyenne and Arapaho, see: NDÉ BIZAA' II (NAA'KI)An Introduction to Mescalero Apache Language Phrases
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Post by ouroboros on Jun 19, 2021 15:48:16 GMT -5
There is a report that the Apaches had been routed from the southern Plains in a nine - day battle at El Gran Cierra de el Fierro ' The Great Mountain of Iron' around 1723-1724. However the historicity of this battle is contested, and there are good arguments that such a nine-days fight is rather an invention than history. The argument of Karl Schlesier against the historicity of this battle is as follows: Karl Schleiser, RETHINKING THE DISMAL RIVER ASPECT AND THE PLAINS ATHAPASKANS, A.D. 1692 - 1768, "Plains Anthropologist", Vol. 17, No. 56 (May 1972), pp. 101-133, at p. 117.
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Post by ouroboros on Oct 2, 2021 7:52:07 GMT -5
The Western Apache called the Comanches Hanahdi’ nnee, which means 'Native Americans from far away', a term used also for other tribes such as the Lakota and the Cheyenne.
Source: Willem J. De Reuse, A Practical Grammar of San Carlos Apache, p. 196.
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