Comanche - Apache warfare

[ouroboros]

Comanche vs Apache

These two peoples have being fighting since the first half of the XVIII century. The Comanches pushed the Lipan and Mescalero Apaches from the Plains after a nearly hundred years of warfare. The longstanding enmity between those two is reflected by the names by which they described one another – the Comanches called the Mescalero and Lipan Apaches “esikwita” (gray excrement) whilst the Apaches called the Comanches Indassene (from indas, enemy).

There is a discussion which people being the better fighters, and most scholars are the opinion that the Comanches – better horsemen – were victorious on the open plains, while the Apaches were superior in the mountain terrain:

Sherry Robinson (Apache Voices, p. 134):

“By 1750, a map of Comanche territory nearly replicated a map of former Plains Apache lands. However, they were no match for mountain Apaches.

Ernest Wallace, E. Adamson Hoebel (The Comanches: Lords of the South Plains):

"On the plains the Comanches were victorious, but in the hills and mountains the Apaches were able to resist successfully”

This opinion is shared by some Chiricahua Apaches:

'We fought the ones in the buffalo head hats [Comanches] all the time. 'If they could catch us in the open, we were done for, but usually we could lead them into canyons where we took what they had.

Quoted after: The Chiricahua Apache, 1846-1876: From War to Reservation, p. 55.

The Mescaleros were a particularly dangerous enemy for the Comanches in the mountainous regions of Northern Mexico. As Brian DeLay puts it (War of thousand deserts, p. 271):

“Mescaleros occasionally joined Chihuahuan forces pursuing Comanche raiders, and they also fought Comanches independently in the Bolson. Mexicans hardly ever heard of these kinds of clashes, but there is no doubt that plains raiders had to worry about Mescalero ambushes as they returned with animals and captives taken on campaign. Peace agreements with the various Apache communities eliminated these concerns.”

Conflicts between these two tribes resulted in many deaths on both sides – some important Comanche chiefs died in fight against the Apaches: Bajo el Sol died fighting the Mescaleros, and Yellow Wolf was killed by the Lipans in 1854.


There are many interesting accounts on Comanche-Apache intertribal warfare, and I will put some informations in the future.

[ouroboros]

The question which of these two peoples produced better warriors is a matter of dispute. George W. B. Evans, Mexican Gold Trail: The Journal of a Forty-niner, p. 116, had a poor opinion on the Apaches, whom he considered inferior to the Comanches in almost every aspect:

"They, like their descendants (the Northern Mexicans), are cowardly, not well armed, poorly mounted, thievish in their dispositions, and, unlike the Camanche (sic!) nation, fight in ambush. The Camanches (sic!) are braver, have better arms, and are generally well mounted and make their attacks on horseback, and are, perhaps, as a nation the best horsemen in the world. To fight them successfully, it is necessary to to dismount them by shooting their horses first, and then take them while running form you in an ungainly, wadding gait."

Link: books.google.pl/books?id=9xAzoewavMsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Journal+of+forthy-niner&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj52M-U7JvoAhWylosKHf2lBeoQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=Comanches&f=false

By the 1840s the Rio Conchos became an unofficial border between the raiding activities of those two peoples. As Donald Worcester puts it (Pioneer Trails West, p. 91):

“By the 1840s the Rio Conchos had become the unofficial demarcation between the raiding activities of the Apaches (who plundered from there westward) and the Comanches and Kiowas (who raided from there to the Gulf of Mexico).”

Link: books.google.pl/books?id=ah41qFanhIEC&pg=PA91&dq=Apache++Comanches+rio+Conchos&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiButbY8ZvoAhVloosKHeKwAMMQ6AEIMzAB#v=onepage&q=Apache%20%20Comanches%20rio%20Conchos&f=false

[ouroboros]

Mostly the Lipan and Mescalero battled the Comanches, but sometimes the Chiricahuas also fought the Indassene. An interesting info can be found in Jason Betzinez's book "I Fought with Geronimo,". On p. 166 he says that:

"There had never been much contact between the Apaches and the plains tribes, but occasionally the Kiowas and Comanches, in raids against the Navajoes, Utes, or Pueblo tribes, had collided with Apaches. Similarly the Apaches, while on their rare expeditions eastward after buffalo, had had fights with the prairie Indians."

[ouroboros]

There is an interesting theory why the Comanches defeated the Eastern Apaches in XVIII century. The most popular opinion is that Comanches had more horses and firearms acquired from the Spaniards. Charles L. Kenner, however, dismantled this thesis showing evidence that the Eastern Apachean had enough horses and the Spaniards in fact did not sell guns to the Comanches before they defeated the Apacheans. Why then the Comanches finally became victorious? The answer is simple - as Kenner writes:

The Apaches were unsuccessful in defending themselves largely because they have lived in small, isolated farming communities that were easy to overwhelm by surprise attacks. On the other hand, Apache retaliatory expeditions were usually unsuccessful because the Comanches were difficult to locate and had better organization and discipline. According to Inspector Don Pedro de Rivera, who visited New Mexico in 1726, the Comanches conserved “such solidarity that both on the marches which they continually make… as well as in the camps which they establish where they settle, they are formidable in their defense”. Two courses of action might have enabled the eastern Apaches to withstand the Comanche onslaught: by abandoning agriculture and reverting to their former status of nomadic bison hunters, they could have met the Comanches on equal terms; or, by concentrating—like the Pueblos, the Pawnees of eastern Nebraska, and the Taovayas on the Red River—into larger, fortified villages, they could have repulsed the attacks. They failed, however, to make either of these adjustments.

Kenner, The Comanchero Frontier: A History of New Mexican-Plains Indian Relations, p. 32.

Link: books.google.pl/books?id=Dv7CxSMV9dkC&pg=PA78&dq=Comanchero&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8g_Gt8svoAhUHAhAIHTGQCh0Q6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=horses%20Apaches&f=false

This opinion is shared by Jeffrey D. Carlisle:

In addition, the Apaches had never adapted completely to a Plains culture. They continued to establish rancherías, where they built huts and tended fields of maize, beans, pumpkins, and watermelons. This attempt to improve their source of food was a major cause of their defeat by the Comanches. Twice a year, during planting and again during harvesting, the Apaches were tied to their fields. As a result, the Comanches knew where to find their enemies and could launch devastating raids upon the Apache settlements. With each successful raid the Comanches grew stronger and the Apaches weaker.

Link: tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/bma33

[ouroboros]

Interestingly, when Lipan Apaches attacked Mexicans or Americans their used some stratagems to deceive their pursuers and make them believe some other ethnic group actually carried the attack. One of such stratagems included leaving Comanche arrows in the place of the attack. As Andrée F. Sjoberg, Lipan Apache Culture in Historical Perspective, p. 95 writes:

When an enemy attack seemed imminent, the warriors stood ready beside best horses, while the women and children mounted the other horses the hills. When the Lipan themselves attacked, they relied heavily upon assaults by small groups, often at night. Then they quickly withdrew, leaving Comanche arrows or other items to confuse their pursuers.

Sjoberg paper is free for download from JSTOR: www.jstor.org/stable/3628495?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

[ouroboros]

As the Kiowa were allies of the Comanche they were also enemies of the various Apache groups, mainly the Mescalero and Lipans. As for the Chiricahua the Kiowa name for the them is Do’-ko’nsenä’go – “People of the turned-up moccasins” from do’ti, ko’nsenä, and go ; “Hooked or curved Toe Apache”. As it was noticed, their relations with the Apache of Arizona were too casual to be of definite nature: books.google.pl/books?id=2IZjDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT16&dq=Kiowa+calendar&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwifi6-Kus_qAhXN-ioKHbwzC1oQ6AEwAHoECAUQAg#v=snippet&q=Arizona&f=false

There were, of course, some fightings between Kiowa and the Chiricahua.

[ouroboros]

An interesting information I have found in W. Gifford's, CULTURE ELEMENT DISTRIBUTIONS: XII
APACHE-PUEBLO, p. 170. It is a collection of field notes taken during work in reservation. It sheds some light on Mescalero-Comanche warfare:

"Me (i.e. Mescaleros) no war party against Comanche, but against Mexicans. Comanche raided Me in mt. habitat, but always driven off."

It supports the aforementioned opinions that Comanches were no match for Apaches in mountainious terrain.

Idem, p. 172. Mescalero Apaches scalped only the Comanches as an act of retaliation:

"Me (i.e. Mescaleros) Mexicans and Americans not scalped; only Comanche, in retaliation for their scalping; whole taken, then small round piece cut out, rest thrown away. Selected best-haired Comanche. Experienced warrior prayed 4 times over it. Then cut 4 times clockwise. Washed free of blood, combed, fastened on stick. Fear of scalp (?). Kept and used by singer of war songs. Sometimes warriors kept pieces in little skin bags. Rest thrown away".

Ibidem, p. 172:

"Li (i.e. Lipans) no scalps till Comanche and Kickapoo started practice. Only 1 or 2 after battle; washed, smoked, combed, put on 5-foot stick. Story of Lipan young man scalped by Kickapoo, where lay in bottom of arroyo, feigninlg death. He held skin together, tied it, lived to be 70. Ll scalp embroidered and kept by scalper many years, stored with clothes in rawhide bag. Only 1 scalp, always of first enemy
killed. War bonnet and clothes of slain enemies taken."

[ouroboros]

The Comanches used a tactic to deceive their pursuers when steeling horses from Mexicans or Americans. Comanches simply rode nearby or through Apache camps so that the possies thought that it was the Apache who stole the horses. This is described by Sherry Robinson, I Fought a Good Fight: A History of the Lipan Apaches, p. 121:

That fall, Comanches attacked Laredo, ran off more than three hundred horses, and retreated through an Apache camp, an old tactic. On October 8, citizens surprised Lipans camped at the Nueces, killing two men and a women and taking more than five hundred horses and mules.

Link: books.google.pl/books?id=ZF-PKg6Q4Y8C&pg=PA121&dq=lipan+apache+suprised+a+comanche&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi3qqX2__3sAhUriYsKHSGQCF8Q6AEwA3oECAQQAg#v=onepage&q=lipan%20apache%20suprised%20a%20comanche&f=false

[ouroboros]

The Comanche and Lipans were formidable oponents and they fought many skirmisches and battles.
Two best documented skirmisches:

(1) April 7, 1838 Texas Republic. A skirmish between Lipan Apaches and Comanches along the Nueces results in eight Lipans killed: library.uta.edu/borderland/event/384

(2) Date: July/August 1840, Texas Republic. A party of Lipan Indians engage Comanches on Rio Frio, killing thirteen. Seven or eight Comanches are sent as prisoners to Bexar: library.uta.edu/borderland/event/1198

[ouroboros]

In 1840 the Comanches and Kiowas on the one side, and the Cheyennes and Arapahos on the other agreed to cease warfare and made peace. For the Cheyennes and Arapahos it gave a significant advantage, beacause they achieved access to the main source of horses - Spanish Southwest and Mexico. Before the peace treaty the Comanches and Kiowas formed a barrier and breaking it was a dangerous feat: books.google.pl/books?id=8_ejE8dGOcMC&pg=PA72&dq=Comanches+Cheyennes+1840+peace&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwink9ag6f_tAhVIEncKHS7PAo0Q6AEwAXoECAQQAg#v=onepage&q=Apache&f=false

The Cheyennes got free access to New Mexico, and together with the Comanches and Kiowas they began fighting the Mescalero Apaches. There were some hostilities between Mescalero Apaches and the three tribes, and the federal agents tried to pursue an peace agreement between them:
books.google.pl/books?id=yoZCx5MnOO0C&pg=PA92&dq=New+Mexico+Cheyenne+Mescalero&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx8P6Rk9rbAhVBsywKHcnNBBIQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=New%20Mexico%20Cheyenne%20Mescalero&f=false

'Indian agents, anxious to arrange a truce between and among warring tribes of Ute and Mescalero Indians on the one side, and Navajo, Kiowa and Cheyenne Indians on the other, held a council at the Achuleta Agency in northern New Mexico in late summer of 1858'.

[chicheman]

Thanks ouroboros, that is great informations, thanks for your efforts of research.
Looks like there was some alliance between Lipan-Apaches and Tonkawas during the 19th century and they also did intermarry to some degree.
Some informations to find in a new book on the Tonkawas: The Texas Tonkawas, Stanley S. McGowen, 2020, State House Press, TX. Tribal History until 21. Century.
Pages 161-162: (at Powwows) Each tribe performs certain dances particular to their culture.For instance, the Tonkawa dance and sing a special song honoring the Lipan Apaches, old allies and no longer recognized as a tribe by the United States government. (Though we know that their are descendants among the Mescalero Nation and of two groups calling themselves Lipan Apaches in Texas). The Tonkawas, Mescalero Apaches and possible Kiowa-Apache tribes absorbed the survivors of the scattered Lipan Apaches years ago.
Anyway, both Lipan and Tonkawas are reported to have been superb scouts, fighters and hunters and horsemen, fighting Comanches and Kiowas and acting as scouts for the US Army during the wars on the southern Plains.
Sources to find in Sherry Robinson, I fought a good fight - A History of the Lipan Apaches, Univ. of North Texas Press.
Best chicheman

[ouroboros]

Thank you for your kind words, Chicheman

I am very grateful for the news on the book on Tonkawa tribe! A must have for me.

I will put some more infos on the warfare between Comanches and Apaches in the near future.

With best wishes,
Ouroboros

[ouroboros]

Mar 11, 2020 4:05:23 GMT -5 ouroboros said:

[...] the Comanches called the Mescalero and Lipan Apaches “esikwita” (gray excrement) whilst the Apaches called the Comanches Indassene (from indas, enemy).

There is more infos how the Apacheans decribed the Comanches:

The Lipan Apache called them "'Inaatsii'ìì"

The Mescalero Apache called them "'Indaa'tse'õde" or "Indassene". The meaning of the former is disputed. Possible meanings:

1) "the people who follow after white people"

2) "the people who follow after enemies."

3) "the enemy people" or "the people of enemies"

The third is the most possible explanation for two reasons: (1) the Mescalero suffix "õde, - éõde, -néõde,or -héõde" means "the people of", and (2) in Apache Legends & Lore the Comanches are described as "The Enemy People".

For the Apache legends on Comanches, see: books.google.pl/books?id=nwh3CQAAQBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=apache+lore&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiczILB5Y7uAhVGlosKHS_XAbgQ6AEwAHoECAYQAg#v=onepage&q=enemy%20people&f=false

And for Apache names for foreign people like the Comanche, Cheyenne and Arapaho, see: NDÉ BIZAA' II (NAA'KI)An Introduction to Mescalero Apache Language Phrases

[ouroboros]

There is a report that the Apaches had been routed from the southern Plains in a nine - day battle at El Gran Cierra de el Fierro ' The Great Mountain of Iron' around 1723-1724. However the historicity of this battle is contested, and there are good arguments that such a nine-days fight is rather an invention than history.

The argument of Karl Schlesier against the historicity of this battle is as follows:

Both Schroeder and Newcomb see a rapid withdrawal southward of the Lipan from the Canadian River in 1723 as the result of a nine-day battle between Comanche and Apache on the Plains east of Pecos "in which the Comanches bloodily established their military supremacy" (Newcomb 1969:152). It is unlikely that such a battle ever occurred. In 1723 the Comanche were preoccupied with raiding the former Colorado Apache, now settled on Cimarron and Ponil creeks. They raided again in 1724, but by 1726 they themselves were on the defensive against Carlana and Kansas Apache reprisals.

Karl Schleiser, RETHINKING THE DISMAL RIVER ASPECT AND THE PLAINS ATHAPASKANS, A.D. 1692 - 1768, "Plains Anthropologist", Vol. 17, No. 56 (May 1972), pp. 101-133, at p. 117.

You can download Schlesier's fascinating paper from JSTOR: www.jstor.org/stable/25667073

[ouroboros]

The Western Apache called the Comanches Hanahdi’ nnee, which means 'Native Americans from far away', a term used also for other tribes such as the Lakota and the Cheyenne.

Source: Willem J. De Reuse, A Practical Grammar of San Carlos Apache, p. 196.