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Post by Californian on Mar 3, 2020 17:17:54 GMT -5
Rather than tying into the existing thread about Crazy Horse's family that does have a lot of comments by numerous participating parties and overall, due to the sheer volume it is confusing. Am working on a small project here in Santa Fe (New Mexico) trying to establish a provenance on a historical object that is supposedly attributed to Julia Clown, wife of Amos Clown of Thunder Butte, South Dakota (Cheyenne River Reservation). There is much on the internet about Julia Clown, also known as Iron Cedar Woman, supposedly a half-sister of Crazy Horse. There are commentaries out there that support this fact and others that dispute it. Thus getting some help with the members on this forum would be appreciated. One unsubstantiated source stated that Iron Cedar Woman was the daughter of Worm (Crazy Horse-father) by his wife Red Leggins. Given that Iron Cedar Woman was born about 1868 according to the Indian census rosters I find it a bit implausible that her supposed mother, Red Leggins was born around 1818 and died in 1905. That age range of course would be realistic. So definitely a lot of the information out there pertaining to this lineage is not correct or at best only partially correct. Given that the name Crazy Horse was a widely known and famous name, it would be very tempting for some people decades after his death to claim kinship. Of course the true facts may never be known and perhaps this might be intentional to keep things private. Thank you for anyone offering insights and more so credible source citations if possible.
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Post by Californian on Mar 3, 2020 18:13:49 GMT -5
wanted to include the wellknown photograph of Julia Iron Cedar Woman, wife of Amos Clown
Rather than tying into the existing thread about Crazy Horse's family that does have a lot of comments by numerous participating parties and overall, due to the sheer volume it is confusing. Am working on a small project here in Santa Fe (New Mexico) trying to establish a provenance on a historical object that is supposedly attributed to Julia Clown, wife of Amos Clown of Thunder Butte, South Dakota (Cheyenne River Reservation). There is much on the internet about Julia Clown, also known as Iron Cedar Woman, supposedly a half-sister of Crazy Horse. There are commentaries out there that support this fact and others that dispute it. Thus getting some help with the members on this forum would be appreciated. One unsubstantiated source stated that Iron Cedar Woman was the daughter of Worm (Crazy Horse-father) by his wife Red Leggins. Given that Iron Cedar Woman was born about 1868 according to the Indian census rosters I find it a bit implausible that her supposed mother, Red Leggins was born around 1818 and died in 1905. That age range of course would be realistic. So definitely a lot of the information out there pertaining to this lineage is not correct or at best only partially correct. Given that the name Crazy Horse was a widely known and famous name, it would be very tempting for some people decades after his death to claim kinship. Of course the true facts may never be known and perhaps this might be intentional to keep things private. Thank you for anyone offering insights and more so credible source citations if possible.
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Post by ephriam on Mar 18, 2020 12:15:45 GMT -5
Good morning:
Interpreter William J. Bordeaux wrote in his book, Crazy Horse's Conqueror: "In view of this uncertainty, I interviewed several near relatives of the noted warrior including a full sister, Mrs. Clown. In my interview with her at her home, about seven miles East of the Thunder Butte Sub Station on the Cheyenne River Indian reservation, she told me, and her story has been substantiated by other relatives, that Crazy Horse was born somewhere near the mouth of the Laramie River in the southeastern part of Wyoming. As to the date of his birth both Mrs. Clown and her husband agreed that it was in the spring of the year that Left Hand Big Nose was killed by the Shoshonees." Notice that Bordeaux referred to her as "a full sister" though he never provides any further details about the family relationship. This "full sister" is also what the modern Clown family descendants claim in their published interviews, etc.
All of the Oglala sources I have spoken to say this is incorrect. I think that Bordeaux was mistaken, that the sister relationship was actually through marriage. We must remember the Lakota had a wider view of family relationships than the western model.
I believe this latter view is supported by documentary evidence. In 1881, Crazy Horse senior was recorded at the Rosebud reservation, just before he died. At the same time, the Clown family are recorded among those coming in from Canada and surrendering in 1881. The Clown family can be seen in the Sitting Bull Surrender Census, family 416, including "Tits" or Woman's Breast as later translated, his wife Red Legs and their twelve year old daughter, Iron Cedar. While I am not doubting a relationship between Worm and Women's Breast, I think it is through marriage -- not that they are the same individual as later claimed by the modern Clown family.
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Post by carlo on Mar 19, 2020 3:00:36 GMT -5
Thanks Ephriam, to me that particular evidence clearly supports the notion that Woman’s Breasts and Worm/Crazy Horse Sr were two individuals. Can you explain what you mean by them being related “through marriage”? May have missed this in earlier threads.
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Post by Californian on Mar 19, 2020 12:45:25 GMT -5
thanks Ephriam your deductions make perfect sense, It is by all accounts a very touchy subject. I wonder if in the Lakota sense of family the Anglo-European term of a "full sibling" even formally exists?
Iron Cedar Woman could easily have been, for example, a sibling of a spouse or something like that. I would agree with all that Woman's Breast and Worm/Crazy Horse Sr. were two separate individuals, perhaps the mothers of Crazy Horse and Iron Cedar Woman were siblings or ½ siblings which then the two would deem each other again as siblings (i.e. cousins). That there was some type of kinship I totally believe, the Clown family would not just make it up - but the context of it for Anglo-European understanding likely is different. Just my take on this, but by all means I would be most grateful to learn about this as much as possible. Ephriam, this pertains to the same subject as the Red Bear project that I am working on - Julia Clown is one of the great-grandmothers of the contemporary Red Bear person.
Good morning: Interpreter William J. Bordeaux wrote in his book, Crazy Horse's Conqueror: "In view of this uncertainty, I interviewed several near relatives of the noted warrior including a full sister, Mrs. Clown. In my interview with her at her home, about seven miles East of the Thunder Butte Sub Station on the Cheyenne River Indian reservation, she told me, and her story has been substantiated by other relatives, that Crazy Horse was born somewhere near the mouth of the Laramie River in the southeastern part of Wyoming. As to the date of his birth both Mrs. Clown and her husband agreed that it was in the spring of the year that Left Hand Big Nose was killed by the Shoshonees." Notice that Bordeaux referred to her as "a full sister" though he never provides any further details about the family relationship. This "full sister" is also what the modern Clown family descendants claim in their published interviews, etc. All of the Oglala sources I have spoken to say this is incorrect. I think that Bordeaux was mistaken, that the sister relationship was actually through marriage. We must remember the Lakota had a wider view of family relationships than the western model. I believe this latter view is supported by documentary evidence. In 1881, Crazy Horse senior was recorded at the Rosebud reservation, just before he died. At the same time, the Clown family are recorded among those coming in from Canada and surrendering in 1881. The Clown family can be seen in the Sitting Bull Surrender Census, family 416, including "Tits" or Woman's Breast as later translated, his wife Red Legs and their twelve year old daughter, Iron Cedar. While I am not doubting a relationship between Worm and Women's Breast, I think it is through marriage -- not that they are the same individual as later claimed by the modern Clown family. |
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Post by Californian on Mar 19, 2020 17:54:32 GMT -5
here is a text about Iron Cedar Woman's family ties based on the notes of her son, Andrew Clown († 1981)
AMOS AND JULIA IRON CEDAR CLOWN from notes of Raymond Clown (their youngest son, died 1981)
Amos Clown, Cega/Paul Red Bird and Grows in a Day/Lucy (Mrs. Poor Buffalo) were the children of Fights the Thunder/Mi Ye Yi Lo (1828-1916) and Pazala/Thin Out/Rail/Rotation. Amos Clown was born around 1864 in Montana. He was 12 and took part in Custer's battle. His brother, Paul Red Bird, is 15 years at that time. Both have seen lots of action.They tell lots of eyewitness stories. It lasted about 30 minutes, they said. Iron Cedar/Julia Clown was born at Powder River, Montana around 1864. Her parents are Women's Breast/Corn and Red Leg (d. 1905). She has three brothers: Chief Crazy Horse (half-brother, b. 1850); Peter Wolf and Leo Combing. Women's Breast/Corn was also the father of Iron Between Horn (f) and Bull Head (m). Julia's father died or was killed in battle in 1874 when she was 8. At age 10, she was not at the Custer battle as they moved out before the battle. Amos Clown and Julia Iron Cedar were married in 1884 by a Congregational minister. Nine children were born to this union:
- Moses Clown/Running Eagle was born in 1891. He served in World War I and was killed in Germany in 1918.
- Joseph/Peter Clown (1894-1963) married Emiline Did Not Go Home and they lived north of the Moreau River, across from Amos Clown's.
- Nellie/Mollie Clown (1896/7-1930) married Samuel Butcher.
- James Clown (1901-1969) married Mary Red Bear and later married Anna Red Bird.
- Lillie Elizabeth Clown lived from 1903 until 1917.Her sister,
- Lilie Clown (1903-1942) married James Makes Trouble.
- Louise Clown, born in 1905, married Henry Red Bear. They now live in Dupree.
- Edward Clown, born in 1908, married Amy Talks. They raised their children west of Iron Lightning, and now live in Dupree.
- Raymond Clown (1914-1981) married Sarah Marrowbone and raised six children in Thunder Butte.
Julia and Amos Clown are buried 3 miles east of Thunder Butte Community at the Clown Family Cemetery. She died in 1936 and Amos died in 1943.
Now this text has some inconsistencies, such as the age/birth year of Julia Iron Cedar Woman - in one area it states that she was born in 1864 and then upon the reference to her father's death in 1874 it states she was 8 thus would have been born in 1866. But that's not so important. Important is that it states her father was Woman's Breast/Corn and if he really died in 1874 he certainly could not have been identical to Worm, natural father of Crazy Horse. However there are the other references that state that Woman's Breast was still alive at a later date than 1874 - thus there is certainly something not clear about it. Was her mother, Red Leg possibly a former wife of Worm ? I would think that Raymond Clown, being Julia Iron Cedar Woman's son, would be knowledgeable about the parents of his mother. |
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Post by Californian on Mar 19, 2020 19:15:10 GMT -5
and one more comment - looking through the various boards and earlier discussions, some dating back several years, it seems that Kingsley Bray had a good, common sense commentary on this subject
Corn was a Miniconjou chief painted by Catlin in 1832 - to judge by his appearance he may have been born in the late 1780s/early 1790s. Since writing the Crazy Horse biography I have located winter count evidence that he died in 1846 or '47. His children included such sons as Bull Head (possibly two bearing the name, the eldest dying before ca. 1850), Has Horn (and maybe some uncles of Crazy Horse that seem to fit in here: Ashes, Spotted Crow); and daughters Red Leggings Woman, Kills Enemy, and Iron Between Horns. The latter two married Oglala holy man Worm (father of Crazy Horse by his first wife Rattle Blanket Woman - also Miniconjou and related to the later wives). Red Leggings Woman married a Miniconjou called Woman Breast, and their children included Julia Iron Cedar - born 1864, who identified Crazy Horse as her brother - entirely correctly according to the Lakota kinship system. — Kingsley Bray (2006)
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Post by Californian on Mar 19, 2020 19:22:09 GMT -5
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