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Post by grahamew on Jan 1, 2010 16:31:46 GMT -5
I thought the reason it was assumed to be him was that he looks like a man featured in a Barry photo from the mid 80s (I think); looking at it again, I think it's an older man in the Haynes photo. By the way, I've also seen this image labelled as Little Assiniboin! Anyhow, for comparison with the tall Indian at the back, here's John Sans Arc, 1884:
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Post by shan on Jan 3, 2010 16:20:09 GMT -5
gregor,
gregor, could you please post one of the 3 images of the five surrendered Sioux chiefs again please, it is one of ones that show Gall, Rain-in-the- Face, Hump, Low Dog and Spotted Antelope, I mean the rather rare one that shows a white child and some white women in it.
I ask this for 2 reasons. One when I logged on yesterday all the images came up fine, but today no matter what I do two of the three images open only partially. My second reason is a few years back when this particular image appeared on another board, posted by graham I think, I back then asked if anybody could make a better scan of it as it was both too small, and of such low resolution that it was impossible to enlarge. Now the one thing I've noticed on this wonderful board is that there are several people who are very good at this, and I was hoping maybe one of them could help me by doing a larger scan of the image.
I'm sorry to bother you in this way, Low Dog.
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Post by shan on Jan 3, 2010 16:44:38 GMT -5
maybe this is the wrong place to post this but, I couldn't see a place to insert it.
Firstly may I wish all the poster on this board a very very happy new year.
I would like to recommend a film to you that all I watched over the christmas break, which is the first film ever made with a full Inuit cast, and spoken only in the Inuit language. The title of film is Atarajuat, { the running man,} which tells the tale of what happens when an evil spirit comes to dwell amongst two family groups and the destruction and sadness it brings.
The film is nearly three hours longs and is often extremely beautiful to look at, but in spite of all the difficulties of having to read sub titles for that amount of time, I have to say I couldn't wait to watch it all over again the following night.
Has anybody else out there seen it?
Low Dog.
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Post by shan on Jan 4, 2010 6:48:01 GMT -5
I forgot to answer the question yesterday as to whether the man standing a little behind Rain is Spotted Eagle.
To my mind there is no doubt that it's him, for one thing the man resembles all the other photographs I've seen of Spotted Eagle, and secondly, if you look closely you will see that he's holding that trademark war club of his, the long curved one with three knife blades inserted at one end. He holds the same weapon in at least two other photographs I've seen of him, so one would guess that this must have been a favorite weapon of which he was particularly fond.
Looking back over my photographs I noticed that Long Dog is also shown in two photos with the same kind of weapon, and I wondered if this were a photographers prop that was used by both men. But on looking closer, one can see that these are two different clubs, { commonly called old time war clubs I think,} as the patterning of tacks on the clubs main body are arranged in completely different ways.
Low Dog.
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Post by gregor on Jan 4, 2010 14:08:00 GMT -5
gregor, gregor, could you please post one of the 3 images of the five surrendered Sioux chiefs again please, it is one of ones that show Gall, Rain-in-the- Face, Hump, Low Dog and Spotted Antelope, I mean the rather rare one that shows a white child and some white women in it. I ask this for 2 reasons. One when I logged on yesterday all the images came up fine, but today no matter what I do two of the three images open only partially. My second reason is a few years back when this particular image appeared on another board, posted by graham I think, I back then asked if anybody could make a better scan of it as it was both too small, and of such low resolution that it was impossible to enlarge. Now the one thing I've noticed on this wonderful board is that there are several people who are very good at this, and I was hoping maybe one of them could help me by doing a larger scan of the image. I'm sorry to bother you in this way, Low Dog. Hi Low Dog, here the image again I would like to serve you with a better resolution. But unfortunately, this is the best I have. Maybe someone has a better version. By the way, you didn't bother me - it's my pleasure to diskuss here Lakota topics. CU Gregor
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Post by shan on Jan 4, 2010 17:48:59 GMT -5
Hi Gregor,
Gregor thank you for posting the image again, unfortunately less than half the image downloads, I cannot understand why because all the other images on both this thread and all the threads on the board download just fine. Again thank you for your efforts.
Low Dog
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Post by shan on Jan 5, 2010 9:02:12 GMT -5
Hi Gregor,
just to say that the image successfully downloaded okay today, ahh, the mysteries of the computor. Thanks again.
Low Dog
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Post by gregor on Jan 9, 2010 7:29:59 GMT -5
I thought the reason it was assumed to be him was that he looks like a man featured in a Barry photo from the mid 80s (I think); looking at it again, I think it's an older man in the Haynes photo. By the way, I've also seen this image labelled as Little Assiniboin! Anyhow, for comparison with the tall Indian at the back, here's John Sans Arc, 1884: Yes, i have also seen this photgraph labelled as "Little Assiniboin". I think it was the Denver Library. I'm still puzzeld over Louis Sitting Bull. Some days ago I came across "Campaigns of General Custer in the North-west" by Judson Elliot Walker (published in fall 1881 in New York). Walker writes on page 104: "Upon the opposite page appears a life likeness of Louis, a son of Chief Sitting Bull...and...we are permitted to take a facsimile of his signature, which was secured from Louis while he was en route from fort Buford to Standing Rock, early last spring, on the steamer "General Terry". Is this Louis Sitting Bulls wife Zuzela? (Perhaps Zuzela is a corruption of Zuzeca. According to Buechels dictionary zuzeca means "snake", but also the blue cardinal flower is named zuzeca) You find Walker's book here: www.archive.org/details/campaignsgenera00walkgoogBut Sitting Bull travelled on the steamer "Sherman", in July. Does that mean, that Louis surrendered earlier. Perhaps with Gall? How reliable is Walker? Has anybody an idea on this? -Gregor
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Post by grahamew on Jan 9, 2010 14:44:45 GMT -5
Here's another view of Louis I'd always assumed these pictures were taken in the mid 80s, but looking at the backdrop, I can see they're not the same set AND he looks younger in the photos where he's wearing the bonnet. The 1881 date would mean they were taken when (or near) the time Barry took the first photos of Gall, Crow King, Low Dog and Crow. I suspect the one of his wife was taken later - mid-late 80s, like the one of him in the waistcoat. Here's a Scott photo taken post-1884, judging by his face, a few years later:
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Post by gregor on Jan 12, 2010 15:34:23 GMT -5
Here I assembled some Louis/John Sitting Bull photographs. Take a closer look to the mouth section: 1 = Haynes, Frank J. Photo taken at Ft. Yates 1881. Is it really Louis/John? I don't know. I'm torn between the two possibilities. 2 & 3 = Barry, ca. 1888 „Louie Sitting Bull“, also distributed by Goff and Haynes. This is definitely Louis (later John) Sitting Bull. 4 = Scott, ca. 1880ies 5 = Barry, 1926, John Sitting Bull 6 = unknown, 1950ies, John Sitting Bull David F. Barry knew Sitting Bull and other family members over a long period. And John Sitting Bull over 40 years! I think, he knew who Louis / John was. As to the name change: It was a good Lakota custom to honor a person by adopting his name. I guess SBs stepson Refuses Them wanted to honor Louis Legaré by taking his name in the first years after the surrender. Louis was one of a few whites who was generous to the starving Lakotas. As far as I know the name "John SB" first turned up after Sitting Bulls death in December 1890. But I have no idea why he choose John as his new name. And one more picture of John Sitting Bull from the 1940ies (?)
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Post by gregor on Jan 12, 2010 15:58:41 GMT -5
....and an addition regarding William Sitting Bull, John Sitting Bulls halfbrother. William was one of the twins born in 1876. His parents were Four Robes an Sitting Bull. He died on December 8, 1909. A year before he had written to the Standing Rock Agent, asking for permission to return to Grand River. The permission was refused. William Sitting Bull, 1905 William SB (blow-up) This could be William Sitting Bull. But who knows? Maybe we should open a "Sitting Bull family" thread?
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 12, 2010 15:58:44 GMT -5
Fine montage, Gregor! Ah... these photographers Yes, Barry should have known them. But still from the look of their faces I´m not convinced that the man in photo 2,3 & 4 is the same man as in 4, 6 and the last photo. Only my opinion of course. It´s hard to say something definite about photo 1, the quality of the photo is not good enough. Gruß nach Münster
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Post by gregor on Jan 12, 2010 16:21:52 GMT -5
Yeah, the montage and the material I used was not that good. But I have some better pix and I had some long looks at the different photographs. About the Haynes image I'm not so sure - as I said before. But take a look at the mouth and eyes section of the other photographs. And we have to consider the pics cover a period of 40 years. I'm virtually certain (98%) that the pix show the same man and his name is John Sitting Bull.
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Post by grahamew on Jan 12, 2010 17:26:14 GMT -5
Are you sure 2 and 3 aren't earlier? If that book was published in 1881 with the illustrations, then they must have been taken shortly after surrender - around the time of the Low Dog/Crow King/early Gall series.
The other one - the Barry studio shot where he's dressed in a waistcoast decorated with rings and chains/strings of beads - that looks like the kind of studio shot Barry was producing in the 1885-8.
I'm no longer convinced the man in the Haynes' photo is Louis.
The subject of the other photo I posted does look similar to the blow up from the 1905 picture you posted.
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Post by gregor on Jan 15, 2010 14:54:03 GMT -5
And one more picture of John Sitting Bull from the 1940ies (?) I contacted Ernie LaPointe regarding this image. He says that this man isn't John Sitting Bull. I have to accept it! There was a great likeness! - Gregor
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