Jack Red Cloud and Friends

[grahamew]

I've come across several group photos of prominent Oglalas, all with the same backdrop. The cast occasionally changes, as do elements of dress. They're Heyn photos, from Omaha, 1899.

[jinlian]

Thanks for this thread, Grahame (believe it or not, I was thinking of opening a discussion about Jack Red Cloud myself!). If I'm not mistaken, there's another image featuring both Little Wound and Jack:



(Jack should be the one sitting behind Little Wound, on the right).

And of course, there's the Pan-Am one (1901) posted on the Blue Horse thread a few months ago and now featured in the Blue Horse bio in the main page.

About Jack: he was born around 1858 and died on July 1st 1918. In Mike Stevens' website, Jack is said to have two wives:
Good Cloud, married around 1879, with whom he had three children:
Charles b. 1888 d. 1979
Lucy b.1888
James b.1891 d. after 1920

(Lucy afterwards married Frank Afraid of His Horse, son of Young Man Afraid of His Horse)

Nancy Poor Elk (daughter of Big Foot- the Oglala or the Minneconjou?), married around 1890, mother of his children
Joseph b. 1891
Susanna b. 1898.

[jmccalla44]

I can't read the writing in the second photo. Can anyone post an identification. Thanks.

[jinlian]

Sorry, haven't read your message until now. The identification is also available at the Smithsonian Archives as follows:

Sitting left to right: Black Bear, Little Wound, Black Bird, High Hawk, and Conquering Bear; standing left to right: Hard Heart, Lone Bear, Jack Red Cloud, Shot In The Eye, and Last Horse.

[jinlian]

More Jack:



1877? By Godkin (he should have looked REALLY young when he fought at LBH)






1913, Washington by W. De Lancey Gill

[jinlian]

Same year and photographer - left to right, Hollow Horn Bear, Jack Red Cloud and Red Hawk (found the reference identifying him as a medicine man-James Walker in "Lakota Beliefs and Ritual")

[jinlian]

Btw, I was comparing Jack's photographs as a young man:



with a picture posted some time ago by Grahame, allegedly portraing Blue Horse's son:



They look pretty much alike (as their fathers), don't they?

[grahamew]

Jack Red Cloud by Rinehart, 1899:



Jack Red Cloud, (by Trager(?); therefore 1890-ish?!) but clearly touched up.



James Red Cloud, by Rinehart, 1899

[jinlian]

Now on sale at Ebay:



Late 1920s: James Red Cloud and family

[grahamew]

I think Dietmar identified this man as James, taken in the 1920s (?). Sorry, can't remember the date, but it looks like the same shirt and blanket as in Jinlian's picture above:

[jinlian]

For sure, both shirt and blanket look quite the same - the family group photograph was taken at James Cook's Agate Springs Ranch, it this info may help.
On the other hand, I was wondering about the heading under James Red Cloud's photograph:
"Indian Chief and Squaw wives" - hadn't the practice of multiple wives wiped off at the time?

If the ebay seller is correct in his/her identification, the woman standing at far left should be Laura (listed in Mike Stevens' website as Charles Red Cloud's, James's brother, wife) , while the young girl is identified as "Agnes Red Cloud" ; the unidentified woman should be then Delia Red Feather, listed as James' only wife.

Anyone can confirm this?

[eamonn]

Hi Guys

Any help would be appreciated. I was advised of this board by another forum member. I am trying to piece information together. Red Cloud had one son Jack and 4 daughters. Can anyone please provide details of the identities of the daughters their siblings/spouses. I came across the following on this board;


About Jack: he was born around 1858 and died on July 1st 1918. In Mike Stevens' website, Jack is said to have two wives:
Good Cloud, married around 1879, with whom he had three children:
Charles b. 1888 d. 1979
Lucy b.1888
James b.1891 d. after 1920

(Lucy afterwards married Frank Afraid of His Horse, son of Young Man Afraid of His Horse)

Nancy Poor Elk (daughter of Big Foot- the Oglala or the Minneconjou?), married around 1890, mother of his children
Joseph b. 1891
Susanna b. 1898.[/b][/i]

Now I am not an expert but I know that some of the information contained above is not accurate. Whilst Jack had two sons; James and Charles they were in fact step brothers. James was a resulting issue from the first marriage to a Cheyenne woman whilst Charles was issue from the second marriage.

James had one son named Edgar; Charles had a son named Oliver. When James died the chieftainship should have passed directly to Edgar but due to generational respect it passed to Charles who died in 1980. Edgar died in 1977 so the chieftainship passed to Oliver (eldest son of Charles who still holds that position today)

Hope this is of some interest to someone. In any event all information relating to Chief Red Cloud's daughters and their families would be greatfully appreciated.

Also I met Sadie Janis recently, lovely lady

Thanks in anticipation

Eamonn

[jinlian]

Hi Eamonn,

thanks for information about Jack Red Cloud's children and grandchildren -yes, I know sometimes the genealogies in Mike Stevens'Oglala tiyospaye aren't always accurate, but that's because they come straight from the contemporary census data, which all but too often were full of mistaken (I've found more than one in the American Horse family records too).

From the information I've collected, Red Cloud had from his wife Pretty Owl (aka Mary Good Road) one son (Jack) and five daughters [reported by R. Larson from an interview of Pretty Owl with Pine RIdge agent John Brennan in 1904]. This is undirectly confirmed by a document in the South Dakota historical society, which gives the daughters'names as follows:

Plenty Horses (or Many White Horses, Libbie ) born around 1848, married to Slow Bear
Wears War Bonnet (Julia) born around 1850, married to Long Soldier
Leading Woman (Louise) born around 1852 married to Peter Richard
Tells Him (Fannie) born around 1860, married to Chase Alone
Charges At, born around 1861, married to Kills Above

Now, I have the copy of the 1887 census, which shows that Red Cloud at at least another daughter called Comes Back, born around 1862 (will scan and post it tomorrow). This may have been the daughter first enrolled and then taken back from the Pine Ridge boarding school mentioned in George Hyde's Sioux Chronicle. I don't know if this daughter was also daughter to Pretty Owl and if Pretty Owl didn't mention her to agent Brennan simply because at the time she had already died. Also, as I wrote elsewhere in this board, there are one or two daughters left out from this list: the wife of One Stab (reported in Fought With Custer: The Story of Sergeant Windolph, Last Survivor of the Little Big Horn) and maybe, if we have to trust Judge Eli Ricker's report, one of the wives of Chief American Horse. According to George Hyde and one of Red Cloud's closest friend, captain James H. Cook, Red Cloud in fact took other wives before (and maybe after) Pretty Owl, so it's possible he had other children, and not just the ones mentioned above.

From the same census records , Red Cloud had the following grandchildren:
from Louisa Richard:

Baptiste b. 1877
Joseph b. 1879
Suzanna b. 1882
Elizabeth b. 1885

from Many White Horses/Libbie Slow Bear

Talked About (f.) b. 1868
Grabbed and Killed (m.) b. 1877
Depend On (f) b. 1874
Steals Horses (m) b. 1882

Also, a grandson called Killed At Home (b. 1873) was at the time living together with Red Cloud, his wife and daughter Comes Back.

In this thread: amertribes.proboards77.com/index.cgi?board=teton&action=display&thread=143
you can find many pictures and some information about Chief Red Cloud's wife Pretty Owl (there are also pictures of Lucy Red Cloud, Jack's daughter, at pag. 2 of the same thread)
something about Red Cloud's uncle Smoke and his family can be found here:
amertribes.proboards77.com/index.cgi?board=oglala1&action=display&thread=239

hth,

Jin

[jinlian]

Almost forgot: some time ago I found this picture, probably taken in the early 1920s:



showing two of Red Cloud's daughters, most probably Tells Him and Charges At, the only ones living by then.

Maybe Chief Red Cloud's descendents can confirm the identification?

[eamonn]

Dear Jinlian

Thank you for taking the time to reply. The information which you provided will be of great assistance to my Ina. She has on many occasions tried to access information at Pine Ridge & the OLC at Kyle without success. I don't know the reasons why but in any event this is absolutely smashing and I am much indebted to you. I knew that some of the other information was inaccurate purely because of associations with the family. I have me Oliver & Sadie. Sadie is very old and I didn't discuss any historical issues with her I would have considered it rude and impolite. I was just thankful to be introduced. If you can find any other information it would be great. If not much appreciation for the info to date.

Kindest regards

Eamonn