Comanche-Apache peace treaty according to Hermann Lehmann

[ouroboros]

Hermann Lehmann wrote about an interesting event – a peace treaty concluded between Apaches, who were led by Victorio and Geronimo, and Comanches.

I read elswhere that Lehmann is sometimes exagerating, so I wonder if there is any confirmation about this event.

Here as the story goes acording to Lehmann: books.google.pl/books?id=QXe7Nljf3RwC&printsec=frontcover&hl=pl#v=onepage&q=Geronimo&f=false

[tkavanagh]

"I wonder if there is any confirmation about this event."

Nope.

I would seriously discount almost everything attributed to Lehmann. I say "attributed" as I have found at least one instance of blatant plagiarism-- probably more by his 1927 editor that himself, as he was apparently barely literate. I liken Lehmann to the character Hap Shannessy on the old Red Green TV show (qv).

And anyway, think about it: for this "peace" to have happened, either Lehmann would have had to travel to far SW New Mexico, if not Arizona, or those Chiricahuas had to come east; both highly doubtful.

[ouroboros]

Thank you very much

Thomas (if i may)I have one more question. Could you comment on the story about the fight between Lipan, Nednahi, and Mescalero Apaches, and a unknown group of Comanches lead by the chief - so is he called in this apache story - Madzil. Here is a link to the book, Apache Legends & Lore of Southern New Mexico: From the Sacred Mountain: books.google.pl/books?id=nwh3CQAAQBAJ&pg=PT160&dq=Lipan+Blue+mounatin+apaches&hl=pl&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Lipan%20Blue%20mounatin%20apaches&f=false

It it is intriguing if souch a fight between Juh's Nednahi and Comanches took place in reality

[tkavanagh]

First things first: I'm Tom, tk, and/or Esimotso (Dr Tom if you want to be formal)

Now to the meat of the matter: Presumably,‘Madzil’ is the Apache name for this person; it is not in the Comanche language.

That said, I know of no Comanche chief named straight-out simply ‘Coyote’.

[Aside: Interestingly, for a character so important in the mythology, there seems to be no specific name for him. The word /isa/ can refer to both Coyote and Wolf, while /tseena/ is both Coyote and Fox. There are a number of other circumlocutions for Coyote (e.g., /oha’anakutu/ ‘has yellow armpits’). ]

The closest to the time period of the Apache story is one of the signers of the 1853 Ft Atkinson Treaty, whose name was given as ‘Warakonalta.’ This was translated as “Poor Coyote Wolf”; but this thoroughly confused. There is nothing that indicates either Coyote or Wolf, no /isa/ or /tseena/. On the other hand , /wura/ [‘wara’- ] is one of several terms for ‘bear’ [although it is also said to be ‘mountain lion’] + /kana/ ‘poor’; e.g. ‘Poor Bear/’

tk
Esimotso

[ouroboros]

Jan 17, 2017 18:04:02 GMT -5 tkavanagh said:

And anyway, think about it: for this "peace" to have happened, either Lehmann would have had to travel to far SW New Mexico, if not Arizona, or those Chiricahuas had to come east; both highly doubtful.
 

Yes, You are right about Lehmann's credibility and the whole story about  peace, but as for the issue of the Chiricahuas coming east I read in the memories of Jason Betzinez (I Fought with Geronimo, p. 166) one of the Chihenne Nde,  that: There had never been much contact  between the Apaches and the plains tribes, but occasionally the Kiowas  and Comanches, in raids against the Navajoes, Utes, or Pueblo tribes, had collided with Apaches. Similarly the Apaches, while on their rare expeditions eastward after buffalo, had had fights with the prairie Indians.