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Post by jinlian on Jun 18, 2011 18:30:48 GMT -5
Thanks for your answer, Wendell.
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Post by rmartin on Jun 19, 2011 2:00:56 GMT -5
I find all of this interesting; I’m Raulin Maritn sun of Agness Bluehorse, who is daughter of Joe Bluehorse, son of Bali Bluehorse (spelling may be wrong) sun of Bluehorse. I’m a Oglala from Pine Ridge.
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Post by hreinn on Jun 19, 2011 12:00:28 GMT -5
Hello Wendell Smoke !
Would you please like to write in as much detail as possible about the bearers of the name Standing Bull among the Hunkpatilas ?
For example: 1. The year of their birth and death 2. When they were given the name Standing Bull 3. Their other name(s) 4. Their parents and wife name 5. Their parents and wife family background 6. Their parents and wife band background 7. Their children names 8. Their role/status in the Hunkpatila society 9. Is Standing Bull exactly the same name as Standing Buffalo ? Did all the name bearers always have the same name Standing Bull or did some have the name Standing Bull and some Standing Buffalo ?
You have already mentioned that Smoke had this name during his youth, after his paternal grandfather. During the Buffalo times, it seems to be at least 4-5 persons among the Hunkpatila who had this name. Does a relative of yours still today bear this name ?
It has been great to hear the words of Marcell Bull Bear and Adolph Bull Bear through you. It would be even better to read their own words. It would be interesting if the Bear people would like to start a new thread here about the Bear people. For example written by Marcell Bull Bear & Adolph Bull Bear. Would you please like to mention this to Marcell Bull Bear & Adolph Bull Bear ? It would be interesting to hear of the times in the south (for example in Kansas) during 1834-1841. What they discovered and how they managed and how the contact with other tribes such as Osage and Ponca went on. What they learned from them and what they could teach them. It would be interesting to read in detail about their family trees. It would also be interesting to hear from the Bear people about the attack(s) on Julesburg in 1865 as part of the revenge of the Sand Creek Massacre. If it does not open any wounds, it would be interesting to hear their side of the feud. I sincerely hope that Smoke people and Bear people will get along and unify the original Hunkpatila band, at least in spirit and friendly communications.
With best wishes, Hreinn
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Post by Dietmar on Jun 20, 2011 9:07:01 GMT -5
Hello Raulin,
and welcome to our message boards. We would be very grateful if you could add something about your ancestor Blue Horse. We have already have posted some photographs of him earlier in this thread.
Thanks for joining.
Best wishes
Dietmar
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Post by jinlian on Jun 20, 2011 10:36:04 GMT -5
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Post by W. Smoke on Jun 21, 2011 17:59:18 GMT -5
On Standing Buffalo;
he was born 1730 & death 1750!
Standing Buffalo was a minor-leader from the Teton SihaSapa Lakota Sioux!
Some say that he was an descendant of Buffalo Bull Walks Standing Upright; the 1st keeper of the Sacred White Calf Pipe!
Standing Buffalo had only 1 child, a son named; Body Parts!
He was the paternal grandfather to White Cow Woman, Smoke & Walks As She Thinks Woman!
That 1800's headman Standing Bull wasn't related to Standing Buffalo!
Anyways now on Bull Bears!
I said this before...
Here little bit of history on Bull Bear’s family & his people;
Today the Bull Bear family is mostly Oglala Lakota Sioux but also from the Cheyenne, O’ Sage & Ponca Tribes from Kansas Territory!
Because after the feud & split with Smoke in 1834, Bull Bear took his division way down south to the Kansas Territory to hunt & lived for awhile. So Bull Bear & some of his people married into Southern-southern Cheyennes, O’ Sages & Poncas!
When they traveled back to the Dakota Territory, they ran into a war party of Smoke’s warriors. A couple months later, Bull Bear & his division ran into Smoke’s Camp again in 1841!
Bull Bear got killed, so his oldest son: Bull Bear II note: this isn’t Young Bull Bear III of Smoke’s division. He took over as the Chief of his father’s division, the Cut off or Bear people. Until his death in the 1865 then his brother Little Wound was made chief!
Note: there were 2 Young Bull Bears, but the older one kept the name just “Bull Bear”!
It go like this;
Chief Bull Bear - chief Bull Bear II - Oscer Bull Bear - "chief" Royal Bull Bear - "chief" Adolph Bull Bear
Chief Bull Bear - chief Bull Bear II - Jesse Bull Bear - Maurice Bull Bear - Marcell Bull Bear
After Little Wound & his son George LW; Turning Hawk was made chief. Then Royal got it back into the Bull Bear family!
Contact: W. Smoke
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Post by hreinn on Jun 21, 2011 18:05:58 GMT -5
OK. Thanks Wendell Smoke.
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Post by kingsleybray on Jun 22, 2011 3:44:22 GMT -5
Thanks Wendyll for clarifying about Standing Bull and Bull Bear. A couple more questions:
The American Horse winter count opens with an entry for the year 1775 or 1776, which states that an Oglala named Standing Bull led a party that "discovered" the Black Hills. Is this the same man who was the grandfather of Smoke?
I understand that the mother of Bull Bear III was either a Southern Cheyenne, an Osage, or a Ponca woman: that is, the wife whom Bull Bear I married during his visit to the south after 1834. Which of Bull Bear I's wives was the mother of: (a) Bull Bear II (b) Little Wound
Bull Bear II died in 1865. Did he die of natural causes, or was he killed, in battle or some other circumstance?
Wopila
Kingsley
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Post by Dietmar on Jun 23, 2011 15:27:00 GMT -5
There are beautiful photos of Smoke´s shirt online at the Smithsonian´s site: collections.nmnh.si.edu/anth/pages/nmnh/anth/Display.php?irn=8353208...for example: Also interesting to read the letter of Lieutenant Colonel William O. Collins Col. William O. Collins, Ft. Laramie From card: "previously ent. at 1136. Deep embroidery. From Ietter to S.E. Baird from Wm. O. Collins Washington, May 8, 1866: "I send you the state robe of Chotah (or Smoke), long the Head Chief of the Ogallallah band of Sioux. It is made of 2 skins of the Rocky Mt. Sheep or goat & the hair ornamenting the border is from the scalps taken by him in war, & the tails of horses obtained in the same manner.-- each cluster of black indicates a single scalp, & the yellow & blue, a horse. In his prime he had been a great warrior, having himself killed & scalped 29 of his enemies. He was a very large & fine looking Indian, weighing at least 250 lbs. And was as remarkable for his good sense as for his bravery. For more than 20 years he had been a fast friend to the whites often saying that they were too many and too strong for the red men & it was foolish to fight them. When about to die he sent for me & I went to his camp which was then about 5 miles from Ft. Laramie, my headquarters, & we had a long talk in the presence of his people. He exhorted them to be always friendly to the whites and requested me to advise & help them in return. He also asked that his remains should be deposited near the Post and the great pathway to the Pacific Ocean and added: 'Don't put me in the ground, put me up high so that all who pass by will see me and say 'That is Chotah, great Sioux chief, friend of the white man. ' I promised & at parting he gave me this robe and his red stone pipe, the most valued relics of his life. He died a few days after & his body was brought by his people to the Fort, thickly wrapped in skins like a mummy, & placed on a scaffold about 10 ft. high in the Sioux fashion, about 1 mi. west of the Fort, on an eminence..... His saddle, bridle, & other equipments were also placed upon the platform with his remains..." This is John Grass (Sihasapa), wearing Smoke´s shirt: ...and Squint Eye (Cheyenne),wearing the same shirt:
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Post by W. Smoke on Jun 23, 2011 19:45:31 GMT -5
Yeahh I seen these photos & read the history of Smoke's shirt before!
I wrote a letter to the Smithsonian Institution Museum in Washington, DC bout the shirt!
"Hi, My name is Wendell Smoke, I'm an direct-descendant of the old Chief Smoke & this letter is bout... If there was more items with the shirt; like his warbonnet, saddle, bridle, sacred bundle & other equipments?"
They said "Only things that we have of Chief Smoke are the shirt, & red stone pipe but the Collins family still have the pipe!"
They were glad that i wrote & offer a free tripe over there to see the shirt... if i want to visit & see it!
Note: I think they put that warbonnet on John Grass to replica Smoke's headdress or that warbonnet really was Smoke's headdress!
Here's our family true story bout Smoke's headdress;
Chief Smoke's headdress wasn't just another ordinary headdress. In fact it wasn't like any other chief's headdress it was amazingly detailed and designed with the finest and longest eagle feathers available. It was longer than Chief Touch the Clouds's headdress, and it had special significance. Indeed it was most honored and sacred among the Lakotas. When Chief Smoke stood or walked in full headdress, there was a magnificent train of eagle feathers trailing or dragging on the ground for many feet behind him. He earned these eagle feathers one by one. The Lakota people made and awarded him this headdress for his status as a great warrior as well as his many good deeds and a life devoted to and for his people. Chief Smoke’s height was 6’5, and his weight was 250 pounds but he was muscular and stature.
Note: Smoke & john Grass was not related!
Contact: W. Smoke
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Post by hreinn on Jul 23, 2011 9:12:16 GMT -5
I can't any longer resist to express how outrageous behavior it was to steal the body of Smoke and its belongings. On top of that to send it to a museum ! How low can you go ?! This is an outrageous act at all times, in all cultures. It demonstrates the low morality of those people who stoled it. Just to think about it to steal the dead body and its belongings is outrageous. But to actually do it is a scandal without comprehension. This act is an everlasting disgrace for those who took part in it. I would like to see the names of all who took part in this to be published. Preferably not here in this thread, which is devoted to Smoke and his family. But rather in a separate thread.
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Sept 16, 2011 6:49:41 GMT -5
There was a Lakota woman (b.?, d.1877) belonging to the Smoke people who married the Crow chief Blackfoot (aka. Sits In the Middle of the Land) (b.ca.1795, d.1877). Below are quotes from the thread Blackfoot aka Sits in the Middle of the Land in the Crow forum. one of Blackfoot's wivves - the one who died with him - was a Lakota According an article in the winter 1999 issue of Montana, Magazine of Western History, Blackfoot was related to Man Afraid of His Horses ( Blackfoot's brother-in-law ). Sits in the Middle of the Land told the Indian Peace Commission at Ft Laramie in November 1867 that Old Man Afraid of His Horse was his brother-in-law. Young Man Afraid of His Horse was in the north, i.e. absent from Red Cloud Agency, during the period March-August 1874. During that time he did visit the Crows, responding to an invitation that Old Man Afraid of His Horse mentioned to Agent J. J. Saville he had received sometime before Xmas 1873. I start this thread with an article found here: www.theoutlaws.com/indians2.htm BLACK FOOT OF THE CROW ©Lee Paul At dusk on the second day of the hunt, two messengers arrived from the other camp with the news that Chief Black Foot and his wife, left, had suddenly become ill and died. Young Man Afraid died in July 1893 just while he was on his way to the Crow agency for another friendly visit. 1. What was the name of this Lakota woman ? 2. When did she marry the Crow named Blackfoot (aka. Sits In the Middle of the Land) ? Obviously it is before 1868. Was it following the Horse Creek Treaty in 1851 ? 3. Who were her parents ? It was repeated after Blackfoot that he was a brother-in-law to Old Man Afraid of His Horse, which would mean that Smoke 1 was the father of this woman. But that does not fit, because according to Wendell Smoke in this thread, Smoke 1 only had 1 daughter = Ulala (aka. Owns Spotted Horse Woman) who married Bull Bear 1 and later Thomas John Conroy. So the woman who married Blackfoot is not Ulala. So there is some confusion here. 4. Is this the Lakota wife of Blackfoot (photograph taken 1873) ? Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Sept 16, 2011 18:06:13 GMT -5
The marriage of the Lakota woman (a relative of Old and Young Man Afraid of His Horse) and the Crow chief Blackfoot (aka. Sits In the Middle of the Land) is very interesting for several reasons. For example:
1. Their nations often fought each other.
2. It must have been a mixed feelings for her when her Lakota relatives attacked her Crow village. Probably the same applied when the Crows attacked Lakota villages.
3. My guess is that this marriage is the reason why the Oglala Lakotas under the leadership of Man Afraid of His Horse thought and dared to go to the Crows in August 1866 and asked if the Crows would ally with them to fight against the U.S. Army [1]. Which the Crows unfortunately refused to do.
4. Both of them belonged to leading families among their nations.
5. This marriage had the potential to affect the history of both of their nations. I think for the better good for both nations. If their nations would have allied. Which they unfortunately did not do.
6. It is interesting how often Young Man Afraid of His Horses visits his female relative among the Crows. Because Lakotas and Crows often fought each other.
Hreinn
Reference: Kingsley Bray, Crazy Horse - A Lakota Life, University of Oklahoma Press, 2006, pages 94-95.
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Post by masleca on Mar 1, 2012 15:55:23 GMT -5
Hello, I am looking for information on my great great grandmother Walks with White and her sister Walks with Cow. I have been told they were daughters of old Smoke. If anyone has any info on this I would be grateful.
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Post by masleca on Mar 2, 2012 11:39:25 GMT -5
Hello, Debstar76, jlw894 and bogartdurkin, I would love to talk with you all......my great-great grandmother was Walks with White and maybe we can share our info and together get to the bottom of the walks with white mystery. I would love to hear from any other Amiottes or LeBoeufs and other relations to Walks with white.
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