Hey, not trying to pick a fight. The Apaches ran away from the Comanches, as fast as they could. The Gila cliff Dwellings are dated at 1280 so you are off by 100 years. The Moggolon were not waring people, the Apache were. The Athabskan Apaches and Navahoe who share the same language roots, yep plains indians.
your POV is yours. Fact the lipan apache were warring with comanche in texas up to northern old mexico. The Jicarilla are plains apache as are the kiowa apache. The mongollon were gone way before influx of chiricahua. As the historical facts of learned men are still just theory like that of the graverobbers types. Or this your pov is very generic thus cite your sources or google it. A debate is far different than a diatribe.
In a flowering of creativity, the Mogollon produced new forms of ceramics. Some painted new geometric designs and story-telling images on pottery surfaces. Between A. D. 900 and 1200, the Mogollon who lived in the Mimbres area in southwestern New Mexico produced black-on-white bowls which are now world-famous examples of the art of the prehistoric people of America.
They developed a more complex, urbanized and stratified society. Individuals evidently developed more specialized skills, turning from the generalized skills of earlier times. Some families apparently lived in larger apartment complexes, accumulated more wealth, owned more jewelry and held more power than other families.
Ironically, for reasons which archaeologists may never fully comprehend, the rise of Mogollon pueblo communities telegraphed the collapse of the culture. Archaeologists speculate that the calamity may have been attributable to drought, resource exhaustion, warfare, disease, religious system collapse, "greener pastures" or some combination. In any event, the western Mogollon peoples began abandoning their communities in several areas in southeastern Arizona and southwestern Mexico early in the 12th century. They had abandoned the Mimbres area by the 13th century. Some hung on until the early 15th century. Apparently many of them joined the western pueblos which existed into historic times, for instance, those of the Hopi and Zuni. About 1300, a mystery people, possibly from the Tucson and Phoenix areas, moved into several of the abandoned areas, and they built 100- to 200-room pueblos and at least one large kiva, but they, in turn, abandoned the area about 1500. The exact reasons for the abandonments and the destinations of the migrants remain a mystery in southwestern archaeology. FYI redpaint
Jasper 4, Excellent information! Very informative. I've read many of your posts on here, and this was written by someone else.... but there is nothing in this information that precludes the Apaches being pushed out of the Southern plains by Comanches or the fact that they killed/absorbed the Mogollons. And the fact that whoever wrote your response has never actually been to Ojo Caliente and seen the Mogollon pit dwellings directly next to the springs. I was at the Gila cliff dwellings two weeks ago.....long way to go from Pinos Altos, and the people who built those were afraid of someone, again around a.d.1280. And nobody knows why the Mogollons left....at this point doesn't matter except for historical interest.. You might want to send a response to "savant" who started this thread... fyi Jasper. BTW, If you are direct kin of Jasper Kanseah(sp?) more power to you!!!! Big Pat