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Post by chicheman on Aug 28, 2014 5:31:27 GMT -5
I was reading in the "Complete Interviews of John Stands in Timber", the noted Cheyenne historian, and there was a very interesting statement done by him. Regarding Scouts of several more northern tribes, said to have been with Gen. Miles against Geronimo and his people: Cheyennes, Pawnees, Utes, maybe of one or two more tribes. I was never hearing about that, always thought General´s Crook and Miles had Nde - Scouts with them. Probably also Navajo, Pima and Papago. Do we have any other information around about that ? Any comments of our Apache members and friends here, maybe oral stories handed down ? Thanks for comments already.
chicheman
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Post by dT on Aug 28, 2014 12:27:12 GMT -5
chicheman ... I cannot say about this information.
But we have established from a story posted by another member here ... that a Native American man who was a member of the Eastern tribes did cross the USA, and wound up serving as a tracker with the Apache Scouts. I dont think this individual was recruited in any way - I just think that life was very mixed up after the Civil War, and so some extraordinary people just happened to be in certain places at certain times.
We also know that Geronimo had some Navajo warriors fighting on his side as well. BUT I have not been able to get any information about those Navajo's at all. Probably it would require a visit to the Navajo reservation, and even then a lot lof luck to find someone who remembers those stories :-)
Pete (dT)
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Post by cinemo on Aug 30, 2014 12:00:40 GMT -5
I think, there is a mistake in that book. Never heard, that Pawnee – or Cheyenne – scouts were used in the campaigns against Apaches . There are two major reasons , why not.
First, Pawnees and Cheyennes were not familiar with the Apache homeland, and secondly, both tribes were not accustomed to the climatic conditions of the southwest.
cinemo
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Post by kayitah on Aug 31, 2014 14:44:22 GMT -5
I completely agree with cinemo and dT.
John Stands In Timber may have mixed up a couple things there. What he probably meant was that both, Crook and Miles, had experience working with scouts prior to becoming acquainted with the Apache. During the wars on the northern plains, in the campaigns against the Lakota, Cheyenne, and Arapaho, Crook had worked a lot with Pawnee scouts. Actually, the Pawnee scouts have glory history as U.S. Army scouts, and the officers generally held them in very high esteem. Cheyenne and Lakota scouts, on the other hand, were very instrumental in forcing Chief Joseph and his Nez Percé to surrender. They intercepted them some 40 miles away from the canadian border, just north of the Bear Paw Mountians. The Nez Percé were forced to turn and fight and, eventually, Joseph and his people surrendered to Miles.
IMO, scouts not familiar with Apacheria would have been of little use. They did not know the country, flora and fauna, did not know the people and their customs, did not speak their language, and were not used to the climate. Add to that the fact that there were enough Apache eager to serve as army scouts. In fact the U.S. Army Register of Enlistments shows that Apache from Arizona (and to a much lesser extent from New Mexico) were among those tribes who served the most enlistments. I am still working with these documents to create a list which will only include enlistments from men born in Arizona and New Mexico. The vast majority of men enlisted in Arizona and New Mexico were Arizona born Apache. In contrast to contemporary opinion, they were not seen as turncoats back in the day. A man had to do what he felt is best for his family, and for many it was clear at the time that further resistance was futile. Plus, many Apache had trust in some of the officers and they respected them (Crook, Crawford, Bourke, B.Davis among others) and even befriended some of them as well as enlisted white men. It's not like they were alienated while living on the rez. Always, whenever there was turmoil on the rez, it either had to do with corrupt/ignorant government agents, a stupid act by some overly ambitious and/or biased army officer, or trouble/feuds with other indians living on the reservation. Back when the Chiricahua had their own reservation at Apache Pass, near Fort Bowie it was supposed that the Fort be closed since there was so little military intervention needed. The majority of people were happy there.
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Post by chicheman on Aug 31, 2014 17:08:44 GMT -5
Thanks Pete, Cinemo and Kayitah for your reply´s. I also agree to your comments. Though we should probably not underestimate the far reaching journeys and trips of party´s of tribes North of the Nde. It is known that Cheyennes made trips to Mexico for horses, and I guess even Blackfeet took horses from Comanches one time. But you´re right, since they did not live in the area, they were sure not as much acquainted with the environment, the land, as were the Nde of course in their Homeland. Just to share what is to find in the book mentioned, "A Cheyenne Voice - the complete John Stands In Timber Interviews", we can read on pages 328 - 329 about Cheyennes (mosty southern, with always some northern Cheyennes as well), being down on the Rio Grande and had a fight with (probably) Utes. This was of course early in the 19. Cent., probably before 1830. Further on page 329 is to read that the Cheyennes called the Rio Grande Chief River, since one time Chiefs were killed there. And: I heard Porcupine and Sunroads, were Scouts under General Miles down there and he told the Story of capturing Geronimo. Further J. Stands in Timber said : they captured Geronimo down there, I saw the Monument when I was there in 1946. The Scouts of different tribes, there were Pawnees, Utes, Shoshonis and Cheyennes.
Well, maybe there was some mixing of Facts of different Events, hard to know. John Stands in Timber sure had a very good Memory in general I think. However, interesting to hear of that Monument. All in all I found it interesting and was surprised to read of Scouts from northern tribes, since there is documentation about many Apache-Scouts,like kayitah mentioned, who had all the necessary knowledge and skills needed. Thanks for your comments.
chicheman
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Post by dT on Sept 1, 2014 9:30:08 GMT -5
I think theres a lot of sense that Miles and Crook would realize that scouts from the northern Plains did not know the area of Arizona well. In particular, Crook was no dummy. While I don't agree with what they were doing - Crook was smart enough to adapt his strategies to the Apache country ... which means using local Apaches as scouts.
Just the same - times were very mixed up then. The Chief of the Apache Scouts was Al Sieber - who originally came from Germany. And one of the young white men with the Apache Scouts was Tom Horn. Tom had left home when he was just 16 years old, because his father was violent and abusive. He travelled many miles across the USA, and somehow wound up in Arizona at the time of the Apache Wars. For us today, it seems unthinkable that a "16 year old kid" could show up in such a place, and then decide to stay there. But times were different back then. No doubt Sieber must have seen some redeeming value in Tom Horn, and gave him small chores to do. Eventually Horn learned all of his tracking skills from the Apaches who worked in the Apache Scouts.
So it was just a very mixed up time after the Civil War ... a great cast of extraordinary and amazing people who were all involved.
dT
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Post by chicheman on Sept 4, 2014 15:37:52 GMT -5
Thanks Pete, for informations and details about Al Sieber and Tom Horn. Both been interesting characters and sure learned a lot from Apaches about tracking and fighting methods. Apache Scouts and People like Sieber and Horn were the ones that bothered the last free Apaches most when tracking them, so yes Crook and Miles knew very well why they worked with them to find Geronimo etc. Thanks,
chicheman
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Post by jasper4 on Sept 12, 2014 10:18:17 GMT -5
the two scouts were Martine and Kayitah while gatewood stayed below both were kinsmen to the group. No other scouts from ant other nation took part and other tribes within the nation helped both miles and crook but crook was honest while miles a fool and liar as proven always the way of the gringo.
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Post by dT on Sept 12, 2014 15:59:51 GMT -5
while miles a fool and liar as proven always the way of the gringo ...
so true - very sad. however, it is not possible to live life this way ... and think there will be no consequences. The Circle Of Life cannot continue - if there is no truth.
dT
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Post by chicheman on Sept 14, 2014 5:50:10 GMT -5
Thanks jasper for your additional comment and Information, thanks dt. That shows to me,as I already thought, that the statemant of northern tribe´s Scouts is more than doubtful. I guess the highly respected Cheyenne elder reporting this, was maybe mixing up things of different Events a little. Neverthless was he a great source of knowledge and deserves much respect. In my eyes, the Nde Tradition is exact and precise and it would not have gone unnoticed if Scouts from foreign tribes were involved. Thanks.
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Post by bktoggy on Mar 9, 2018 9:52:34 GMT -5
I was reading in the "Complete Interviews of John Stands in Timber", the noted Cheyenne historian, and there was a very interesting statement done by him. Regarding Scouts of several more northern tribes, said to have been with Gen. Miles against Geronimo and his people: Cheyennes, Pawnees, Utes, maybe of one or two more tribes. I was never hearing about that, always thought General´s Crook and Miles had Nde - Scouts with them. Probably also Navajo, Pima and Papago. Do we have any other information around about that ? Any comments of our Apache members and friends here, maybe oral stories handed down ? Thanks for comments already. chicheman This would be us white Mountain Apache.
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Post by chicheman on Mar 11, 2018 11:25:35 GMT -5
hello bktoggy, welcome in the Forum and thanks for your reply on this subject and thread I started a few years ago. Yes, White Mountain Apache were known as very skilled and brave Scouts, like Alchesay was for example, as I could learn a Little about them. I had the pleasure to be able to visit White Mountain Territory last September and also went to the Culture Center and Museum. Great place to visit and learn about Nde culture and history. We were also treated in a most friendly and Kind manner, good memories of visiting Nde People,also at Mescalero, enjoyed that. Good thoughts from Germany.
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