The Cheyenne according to Pierre-Charles Le Sueur

[kingsleybray]

I have found on Google Books an 18th century French dictionary or encyclopedia, DICTIONNAIRE UNIVERSEL DE LA FRANCE, ANCIENNE ET MODERNE, ET DE LA NOUVELLE FRANCE, by Pere Sangrain, J. Sangrain, et Pierre Prault (Paris, 1726), which includes new details from the explorations of the trader Pierre-Charles Le Sueur. This important French observer was active in the Dakota or Sioux country on the upper Mississippi valley from 1683-1695, and again in 1700-1701. In collaboration with French cartographers Franquelin, in 1697, and G. De L'Isle, in 1702, he made some important maps which plotted over twenty tribal divisions in modern Minnesota. The dictionary contains data not previously known to me. Here, in my rough-and-ready translation, is what the Dictionnaire has to say about the Cheyenne.

CHAIENATON, one of the Nations of the Sioux of the West, situated to the west of the Mississippi, beside a small lake, formed by a river which winds across the fine prairies where live the Sioux of the West. M. le Sueur, one of the discoverers of the Mississippi, has made his way as far [up the Mississippi valley] as here; he explains their name as meaning those of the accomplished men [hommes accomplis]. This people occupies itself at the cultivation of the earth.

[kingsleybray]

Commenting on this passage, I conclude like John H. Moore, in his masterly study of THE CHEYENNE NATION, that Le Sueur refers not to the entire Cheyenne people, but to a village or band created out of intermarriage with the Dakota. From his map evidence, we can locate the village site near the mouth of Crow Wing river, north of modern Brainerd, MN.

Oglala historian Wilmer Mesteth told me that in the 17th century his people often travelled and camped with a certain Cheyenne band, which he explained was related not to the modern Northern Cheyenne, but to the Southern Cheyenne. He called this band Shahunye - and explained that he thought it had some connection to the early name Saone used of various Lakota groups.

From my own research, explained in full in the early Lakota history I am completing, I believe that Le Sueur's Chaienaton corresponds to Wilmer's Shahunye, and to the historic era Cheyenne band called Masikota.

[cinemo]

Hello Kingsley,

maybe, this is interesting for you.

In the book: The Cheyenne in Plains Indian Trade Relations, 1795-1840, by Joseph Jablow it is stated :

...The first reference to the Cheyennes appears on a map of Joliet and Franquelin which, according to Neill, was apparently
made before 1673. They are here called „Chaiena“ and are listed together with seven other tribes on the east side of the
Mississippi River some distance above the Wisconsin. The „Siou“ are also shown on the same side below this group of tribal names. In the third quarter of the seventeenth century the Cheyennes are, therefore, placed in western Wisconsin, just over the border of southeastern Minnesota.

The author refers to a book by Edward Duffield Neill : The History of Minnesota: From The Earliest French Explorations To The Present Time ( 1883 )

cinemo

[Mike]

You know the biggest mistake made (past and present) when discussing Cheyenne locations and movements, and this includes even the men of first hand experience, is the belief that the Cheyenne moved as a single contiguous group in their westward movements. Calling it a 'mistake' is actually unfair, because it would have been impossible to know for anyone to track the simultaneous movements, intermarriages and camping locations of several bands in the 17th and 18th centuries. It happened in the early period of written history because the name Cheyenne was applied to all the separate bands that eventually made up the Cheyenne, like the Masikota, Omisis, Suhtai, Moiseyus, Tsitsistas, however it was unavoidable due to many factors.

We're all indebted to those who began to figure it out the correct understanding of the migration and movements of these peoples, Moore (along with Schlesier) probably putting it all together first, as you said Kingsley, in a 'masterly' work. I wish there was a digital version of his books as I always buy the physical and ebook version of must have books of the plains histories. I've long been interested in the subject of Cheyenne origins and migrations and only comparatively recently began to understand it correctly, and there is still more to know.

I certainly would have been an eager participant in these discussions back when the site seemed to be very active. I started out renewing my interest in the northern plains and its peoples several years ago but was not aware of this site back then sadly.

My ongoing historical fiction novel (beginning in 1863 and of the Northern Cheyenne) is up to 170k words, but I have begun an anthropological paper (because the novel will take a couple of years more) on the origins of the proto-Cheyenne bands through to their acquisition of the horse, the theory with evidence, is that it all began earlier than is commonly believed, especially the transition to horse nation.

A great example is the report of Don Diego de Vargas about the Cheyenne, “Chiyennes”, at Santa Fe in May 1695 engaged in trade with the Spanish, and whose chief said they "would return in September". The Cheyenne no doubt familiar with the region already through raids and prior trading. There are some obscure but very informative works on the dispersal of the horse from New Spain to native people that unequivocally dispels the myth of 'strays' wandering into native territory as the means of horse dispersal and I think there is more to learn, but enough is out there now to justify a reappraisal of the timeline and how it involves the northern plains, specifically  the Cheyenne, and I hope to do that with the paper.

It's well along, but will post a link to it on this site when it is complete, likely sometime in the forthcoming year.

If there are any papers of yours Kingsley that I'm not aware of that could be used as bibliography for the paper, specifically on the subject of proto-Cheyenne/Lakota relations, which I hope to cover, I'd love to read them.

[chicheman]

Hello Ghost Eagle, that´s a most interesting subject you´re planning to do a paper on, about the origins of the proto- and historical Cheyenne bands. I was interested in this as well since years. I think two of the most important books to give answers are the two mentioned by you, John Moore The Cheyenne Nation and Karl Schlesier´s Wolves of the heavens, along with Schlesier´s Plains Indians 500 - 1500 as a third to mention. I wished Mr. Schlesier would be still alive so we would be able to ask things. Anyway I also would be interested in any paper that Kingsley might have done on the proto-Cheyenne /Lakota relations, as well as the paper you will do, Ghost Eagle. I´m looking forward to hopefully hear and learn more on the subject from both of you. There is a more recent book around, "Maheo´s Children - the early history of the Cheyenne and Suthaio Indians from prehistoric times to A.D. 1700", by Brian Keefe. Gives some interesting ideas but have to study his book still myself. Ever heard of it ? Keep us updated on this interesting subject please. Thanks and best from Germany
Chicheman

[Mike]

Hi Chicheman, I've just recently purchased that book and it is really something, I wish I could have seen a John Moore review of it, quite a lot of information in it! The books identification of the Wotapio as the forerunner of the Omisis is problematic though, anyone want to discuss that?

I have actually dialed back my project to a less daunting one that I can finish sooner and will simultaneously help me in completing the first idea. I am focusing on the timeline of the Cheyenne's acquisition of the horse, or rather when the manhao (band) that first acquired the horse, did, for they all did not at once. I have found some interesting information via the Kiowa that conflicts with some other widely held timeline assumptions and I have to decide which one has the stronger case.

I would be happy to start a thread on here and use it as community research much in the way Kingsley seemed to have done so prior to his books release. I really wish I had discovered this site when he was on here more, I think at this point I'd have research technique questions, as in tips and things he did as he was compiling information on such an obscure subject.

I wish there were as many interested in the Cheyenne as the Sioux.

[chicheman]

Hi Mike, sorry I´m a little late with response. Yes, quite some information in -Maheo´s children- and though I´m still not thru it reading, on some things we might not agree probably. The author does focus a lot also on Delaware Indian history and especially his references on the Walam Olam is to question, since this was examined by experts and found out to be fake, not to count on it as real history but fabricated. But a lot of information in Maheo´s children I found quite interesting and sounding correct. As for the aquisition of the horse by the Cheyennes, I guess it was found out at the old earthlodge places known to have been inhabited by the Cheyennes, that they had seemingly horses there, probably as early as the 1720´s or 1730´s. Not very many I suppose, but a number of horses at least. Would be interesting to learn what you did find out about that subject. Is there some Kiowa tradition that tells about first horses among Cheyennes ? Always glad to learn. Thanks and greetings