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Post by miyelo on Jul 26, 2008 21:03:45 GMT -5
ha ha this is great! Ladonna said it all! I am chippewa from micigan but considered Oglala from living and adoption on pine ridge but now living on rosebud which is really hard when I am on p ridge. This all has to do with people who did not think unilaterally like we all do now. My grampa told me "the white man is concerned with time, the red man is concerned with place."
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Post by ephriam on Jul 27, 2008 15:30:56 GMT -5
The various Lakota tiyospaye that we have been talking about can best be thought of as communities, groups of people who come together to share resources and provide mutual support. Just as we see in our own communities today, people are constantly coming and going, for all kinds of reasons. It is a matter of personal choice. But each of these communities still have a distinct history -- a beginning, a period in which they flourish, and then a decline. It is a cycle of life, just like an individual person.
Describing which band/community a particular individual belonged to can be problematic. I grew up in northern Wyoming and later northwestern Nebraska. As an adult, however, I have lived in a wide range of places -- England, Mississippi, California, Arkansas, Texas and now Utah. So what do I consider myself? A Nebraskan because that is where I grew up? A Texan, because that is where I lived the longest (13 years)? A Utahn because that is where I live now? If I was asked for my affiliation by geography, I might have a little difficulty answering it simply. The truth is -- whatever I choose to be recognized as.
Similiarly, in the 19th century, a Lakota individual could spend his or her entire life in one band (tiyospaye) or he/she may live in a number of different bands over time, for a variety of reasons. For Lakota, each of these bands/communities were viewed as part of an extended family, upon whom you could look for support. And they depended upon you as well.
And once you made that choice, there were a number of physical ways in which you publicly demonstrated your choice. When the bands came together and set up a formal camp circle, each band had a specific place within the sacred circle. You had to choose. Where were you going to set up your lodge? With whom would you affiliate your family? Once you did so, the people of that community looked to you for support. (Just like you may pay taxes in the community in which you live, Lakota traditions had expectations that each family contributed to the whole of the community, above personal ambitions and desires.)
So I must respectfully disagree with one of the earlier posts who thought that we might be overemphasizing the issue of bands, and an individual's affiliation with them. I would argue that we are not recognizing them enough. Decisions were not made at the tribal level, but at the community level and by individuals. I think we are only just beginning to see Lakota history from the perspective of the people who actually experienced it. I believe the only way we are going to get that level of understanding will be to delve deeply into these bands/communities.
I am particurly fascinated with the late 19th century Lakota history, from the period of the Treaty of 1868 through the early reservation era. The deep political divisions or polarization that developed after the Treaty of 1868 continued to haunt Lakota politics for the next generation. Some communities chose to remain out to pursue the traditional life for as long as possible; other communities made the decision to come in to the reservation, as painful as that was. Even after the Sioux War of 1876-77 forced nearly everone on to the reservations, this deep divide remained. In fact, I suspect if we examine the Ghost Dance era closely, we will find that those who embraced the new religion and those who did not will closely parallel the same divisions, the same communities, as we seen struggling during the Sioux War of 1876-77.
So I think the best answer for an individual is to see where they chose to reside. Crazy Horse was not a Minneconjou (despite the new plaque at the LBH that records him as such). While he had Minneconjou relatives and could choose to live with them (and he did for short periods), he clearly viewed himself as an Oglala. He lived with the Hunkpatila tiyospaye of the Oglala, engaged in their politics, provided food for that camp circle. That is clearly the community in which he fully engaged.
ephriam
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Post by miyelo on Jul 27, 2008 21:02:42 GMT -5
this is exactly right. Tiospaye means just that- ''community" and/or ''extended family"
in our case, after the battle at LBH a lot of our relatives, who were with Crazy Horse, went and settled near Porcupine SD. After his murder at Ft. Robinson, more of them came up here. The two headmen, Pahin and Sinte, who lived and rode with the tiospaye of Crazy Horse, were alloted the land and the Porcupine Tail District was born. All those people's names are still here. Thunderhawk, Young Bears, etc are all still here. Some are blood, but ALL are relatives.The center of the district is Evergreen, the Cokan of the Tiospaye. So, we may all be considered Oglala, but my gramps does not consider himself Oglala. He considers himself a Lakota, of the Crazy Horse band. He has another name he uses as well but I cannot remember it right now. There was a very big division between Red Coud, Young Man Afraid, American Horse, Spotted Tail etc-those who wanted to ''hang around the forts" and those who wanted to live the old way with Crazy Horse, etc.
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Post by Dietmar on Jul 28, 2008 9:06:17 GMT -5
Thanks Ephriam, good points. I fully understand your views. But it still makes it not easy to categorize the Indian individuals we talk about here. You mentioned for example George Flying By in another thread (great information, btw). He chose to reside with his tiyospaye at Standing Rock among the Hunkpapas, but you said he still felt himself a Mnicoujou. In his case I would list him at our site as Mnicoujou. Or if an individual chose to change his band location, perhaps several times, how should we list him here correctly? If many of today´s Lakotas feel connected to multiple bands or tiyospayes like Ladonna told us I wonder if this could not also been the case for the 19th century Lakotas. Please don´t think I argue against you, I only would wish for a solution that everyone here could agree with, if possible. Very best wishes Dietmar
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Post by Dietmar on Jul 28, 2008 9:07:59 GMT -5
miyelo,
could you please tell us more about Pahin and Sinte? Were they both Hunkpatilas?
Thanks.
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Post by kingsleybray on Jul 30, 2008 8:03:51 GMT -5
White Bull was, as several people have said on the board, the son of a Miniconjou father, Makes Room; and a Hunkpapa mother, Good Feather Woman, herself the sister of Sitting Bull. His younger brother was One Bull, born to the same father and mother. So the lives of these two brothers are a good insight into how Lakota people in the 19th century reckoned affiliation. Their parents divorced in the mid 1850s, and Good Feather W. took the infant One Bull to live with her folks - the Hunkpapas. So delighted with his little nephew was lekshi (uncle) Sitting Bull, that he adopted the three-year old and raised him in his own household. One Bull grew up among his mother's people. Just as Ephriam wrote above, he identified with the Hunkpapas, living, warring and hunting with them, being inducted into Hunkpapa chapters of men's societies and so on. His affiliation was with the Hunkpapa, and so he ultimately settled on the Standing Rock Reservation at the Hunkpapa community of Little Eagle. (I visited the village last month with LaDonna - what a memorable day that was! Thanks, L.)
The older brother White Bull remained with his father. Makes Room was made a chief (Wichasha Itanchan) of the Miniconjou and the boy was probably being groomed for succession from an early age. In his interviews with Walter S. Campbell (Stanley Vestal) White Bull remarks two or three times that he belonged to the Inyan-aowin or Shell Earring band of Miniconjous. The Miniconjou tribal council or nacha omnichiye met (1853?) to nominate new band chiefs to succeed the outgoing generational cohort. We know that Pte San Hunka I, the father of Makes Room, was one of the older chiefs, and that Makes Room succeeded him to the chieftainship of the Shell Earrings band.
As we might expect from his mother's affiliation, White Bull was a regular visitor to her people the Hunkpapas - exactly like the Oglala Crazy Horse was among his mother's folks, the Miniconjou. In Vestal's NEW SOURCES OF PLAINS INDIAN HISTORY there is a very interesting section in which White Bull talks of the village movements of the non-treaty Hunkpapas in the period 1870-76. He talks of the times he actually travelled with the Hunkpapa, clearly for extended visits of several weeks if not months. Into the 1940s he remained a regular visitor to the Hunkpapa communities where his brother lived.
Nevertheless, White Bull remained with the Miniconjous. He surrendered at Cheyenne River Agency in fall 1876 and settled there. In 1881 the agency Miniconjou council met to induct a new generation of Wichasha Itanchan, with thirty-two year-old White Bull succeeding his father Makes Room.
I think this was probably a classic pattern for the eldest son of a prominent family: groomed for leadership in his father's band/tribe, but encouraged in his early- to mid-20s to build up status among other bands where he had, or could create, relationships - by blood, marriage, ceremonial adoption (hunka) or pledged friendships. In high-status marriages I think the ideal pattern was for the new husband to live with his wife's people for an extended period, building up a reputation as a reliable provider (see Ephriam's remarks above). Then after a year or two and children began to be born, the family would typically move back to the husband's home band/tribe. Hopefully he would attract adherents into the home band, helping it grow and increasing its size, importance and influence.
Hope this helps
Kingsley
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Post by ladonna on Jul 30, 2008 8:33:22 GMT -5
Thanks Kingsely
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Post by ephriam on Jul 30, 2008 9:13:37 GMT -5
Kingsley:
What is your reference for the divorse of Makes Room and Pretty Feather? I had suspected as much but have not been able to find confirmation.
In the Sitting Bull Surrender Census, Pretty Feather is listed in Sitting Bull's band with her daughter Four Woman (later known as Mary Welsh) and son Killed While Standing. One Bull and his wife and daughter are also listed in this band. Interestingly, when asked by the census taker, she lists herself as a widow. Since Makes Room was still living, this reference has been bothering me.
Perhaps after the divorse, Pretty Feather remarried and it is this second husband that had died by 1881 when the census was conducted. Thanks!
ephriam
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frank
Full Member
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Posts: 148
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Post by frank on Aug 4, 2008 15:02:34 GMT -5
Here are few pics about White Bull that Charlie asked me to post on his behalf. This is what he said: "Hey Frank: put in the thread “White Bull”, in the new site, the alleged images. The first is a rare photo of him in his youth; the second, with war bonnet, I am not sure, but I have seen labelled such as him. Put them for the sharing and comments!!! (Charlie)"And heres the pics:
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Post by Dietmar on Aug 4, 2008 15:54:54 GMT -5
Hi Frank (and Charlie),
Nice scan of White Bull. I have to tell you that he isn´t the Mnicoujou Lakota. The photo was taken by L.A. Huffman around 1880 and shows the Cheyenne holy man White Bull aka Ice.
I don´t think the second photo is White Bull either. I have seen it labelled as Big Foot, but I´m not sure he is the Big Foot of Wounded Knee.
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clw
Full Member
Posts: 123
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Post by clw on Aug 4, 2008 18:40:34 GMT -5
When Kicking Bear married a relation of Big Foots', he became a band leader of the Minniconjou. Yet after he returned from the Wild West show he went to live with his family at Pine Ridge. So he must have still considered himself Oglala? Tatanka, this may interest you. A Mnicoujou friend of mine considers him a relative, for what that's worth. "Ghost Shirts were more a creation of one of my relatives, Kicking Bear. It was his vision that the shirts held the power, and were bullet proof. He had no basis to asume this, but the people were in a desperate state. The people had felt as if god had forsaken them, and Kicking Bear was one of two embassadors to Wavoka."
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Post by charlie on Aug 5, 2008 2:40:02 GMT -5
ICE aka WHITE BULL, the famous Cheyenne chief? Dietmar. are you sure? In my book it is labelled White Bull, the Minneconjou that killed Tom Custer. If the photo was made in 1880, he looks too young to be the famous holy cheyenne. Indeed, the Minneconjou at the time was 31 years old. However, can anyone post a certain image of the Minneconjou in young age, if it exsist?
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tatanka
Junior Member
Live every day like there was no tomorrow
Posts: 68
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Post by tatanka on Aug 5, 2008 7:00:17 GMT -5
clw. Thanks for that. I knew about Kicking Bear and the Ghost Shirts. It was his idea alright. Wovoka never mentioned them. What is a bit intriguing is his relative is mnicoujou, yet KB was born Oglala. I wonder which band he considered himself part of.
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Post by charlie on Aug 6, 2008 4:42:19 GMT -5
Ice/White Bull (Cheyenne) was born in 1834. In 1880 he was 46 yars old. The man in the first photo is max 30 years old. Are you agree?
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Post by Dietmar on Aug 6, 2008 16:32:07 GMT -5
Charlie,
I´m quite sure about White Bull being Cheyenne. Huffman labelled the photo "White Bull - Cheyenne warrior, Ft Keogh, MT 1879". Father Peter Powell wrote about this photo: At the time of this picture he [White Bull] had been scouting for the soldiers for some two years. This portrait was taken at the Elk River fort, Fort Keogh, where White Bull handed over his weapons to Bear Coat Miles. ("People of the Sacred Mountain", p. 1131)
There is another photo of White Bull taken about 1879 at Ft. Keogh by Stanley Morrow.
I believe the Lakota White Bull wasn´t at Ft. Keogh around this time.
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