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Post by Diane Merkel on Jul 24, 2008 22:38:53 GMT -5
people get caught up in which bands we are from when it is a choice of when you live. LaDonna, the bands have confused me but, thanks to you, I think I understand now. For example, a Lakota woman born in the Hunkpapa band marries an Oglala and lives with her husband's people, so she is then Oglala and would be considered Oglala forever after. Her children would also be considered Oglala, not half Hunkpapa (because of her) and half Oglala (because of her husband). They all are Oglala. Is it really this simple?
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frank
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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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Post by frank on Jul 24, 2008 23:11:27 GMT -5
Errr... wasnt it "traditionally" that the new husband went with his new wives tribe? So then Oglala man would have become Hunkpapa if the new bride was Hunkpapa...at least like this usually? OR... Please correct me if I am totally lost in here....
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clw
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Post by clw on Jul 25, 2008 9:02:00 GMT -5
You're looking for rules that didn't exist. Family groups were constantly in a state of flux as leaders changed, feuds occured, and inlaws were acquired. Lineage was very important, but it didn't preclude movements between bands. Which is why the determinations we try to make are so difficult. Who belonged where is of more interest to us now than it was among the people in the buffalo days.
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frank
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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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Post by frank on Jul 25, 2008 9:18:03 GMT -5
Good answer, thanks clw.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jul 25, 2008 9:48:00 GMT -5
clw, I'm just trying to get a handle on it so I can be accurate in the main pages. How can I best make sure I've got things right when someone has been affiliated with two bands? Is the last one they lived with the best place to list them, or should I do as with Crazy Horse and list them in both?
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frank
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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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Post by frank on Jul 25, 2008 9:51:19 GMT -5
Thats exactly the thing we are now trying to figure out white High Bear (Moniconjou?) now under "High Bear" topic... besides who was he anyway and what he did...so we can be sure we are actually talking about the same guy as in the picture we are looking... ;D
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clw
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Post by clw on Jul 25, 2008 10:59:49 GMT -5
Diane, I don't know what to tell you and I certainly understand your concern. Some of course are obvious, but with those in question it's a sifting process that I think has to be evaluated in terms of the specific individual. If there's strong debate as to who belongs where, listing in both seems fair.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jul 25, 2008 12:52:01 GMT -5
Thanks! I'll let Dietmar worry about it. Seriously, I appreciate any and all advice. We want the site to be accurate about the people we profile. I'm sure there will be similar challenges as we move to other tribes across the country.
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tatanka
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Post by tatanka on Jul 25, 2008 13:14:48 GMT -5
When Kicking Bear married a relation of Big Foots', he became a band leader of the Minniconjou. Yet after he returned from the Wild West show he went to live with his family at Pine Ridge. So he must have still considered himself Oglala?
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clw
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Post by clw on Jul 25, 2008 16:01:03 GMT -5
When Kicking Bear married a relation of Big Foots', he became a band leader of the Minniconjou. Yet after he returned from the Wild West show he went to live with his family at Pine Ridge. So he must have still considered himself Oglala? Maybe. But my guess is he considered himself a Lakota first with relatives in multiple bands. That's a great example of what I'm talking about and wasn't at all unusual. Unfortunately, we have to accept that our neat little filing system won't always work. OMG, Diane. There's no spell checker here! I'll be exposed as illiterate!
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Post by ladonna on Jul 25, 2008 22:54:33 GMT -5
Let see how can I explain?? There is no rules
If a man marries and woman from a different band moves with her, he belongs to that band or if the woman moves to the man's band she belong to that band.
I am Hunkpapa, Blackfeet and Oglala on my Mother side, I am Ihunktonwan, Cuthead and Sisseton on the Father's side.
I tend to identify myself as Ihunktonwan because I was a part of my Father's family more than my Mothers.
My cousin consider themselves Lakota because they are more a part of my Mother's side yet we are frist cousin from the same family.
It would be like Crazy Horse his mother was mnicoujou but his father was Oglala and his second mother was brule. All of the bands claim him.
Or Leonard Pelter who is Chippewa but is claimed by the Lakota.
For that matter my husband who is also Chippewa but speaks Lakota/Dakota and lives on my reservation.
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frank
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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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Post by frank on Jul 25, 2008 23:49:43 GMT -5
I'm from Finland and there for I'm European...
But yeap seriously, thanks. So the answer is that there is no rules and anybody can be abybody if so wishes to be.
So, basicly anyway, it can be thought that she or he who moves from his/her own band to live with another band then becomes a member of that another band.... and then how "we" now list him/her most likely is based on that which band he/she belonged at the time he/she did something worth mentioning, like took a part in some battle or so... you know did something that he/she is known by still.
Ehhh...right?
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Post by ladonna on Jul 26, 2008 2:06:16 GMT -5
That is the best I can explain it.
It makes sense to us.
It is just like White Bull when he is in his uncle camp-Sitting Bull he is Hunkpapa but in his father's camp he is mnicoujou.
His brother remained Hunkpapa and never took his Father's band
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frank
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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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Post by frank on Jul 26, 2008 2:39:04 GMT -5
Ok good and thanks. So it is safe to assume that no one won get mad that I listed White Bull as Hunkpapa now...
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tatanka
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Post by tatanka on Jul 26, 2008 10:44:30 GMT -5
ladonna, what a pedigree you have! All I can claim is a Lakota great great grandmother.
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