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Post by Dietmar on Jan 2, 2014 8:50:38 GMT -5
Kingsley came up a couple of weeks ago with a question regarding photos of the sundance at Rosebud in 1928, one of the earliest photoraphic record of Lakota Sundance. These photos were taken by the O´Neill company.
(photos deleted)
"Indian Sundance - Rosebud, S.D. 1928" O´Neill Photo I-4
"Indian Sun Dance. Rosebud, S.D." O´Neill Photo Co. I-8
"Sun Dance Ceremonial" O´Neill Photo Co. I-9
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Post by kingsleybray on Jan 2, 2014 9:45:24 GMT -5
Thanks Dietmar, these pictures are an invaluable pictorial resource for understanding the Lakota Sun Dance. It would be marvellous if better res' versions of some of these pictures could surface.
The 1928 Sun Dance was staged by the Rosebud, or Upper Brule tribe, and hosted at the Two Strike community. It was held to win support from the govt and the wider community for permitting the Sun Dance ceremony to be held again. As such it's entirely fitting that these photo's were taken by the O'Neill Co. and should be made widely available. There is a suggestion that film cameras may also have been present. The 1928 Sun Dance stands as a superb example of the Sichangu's abilities as statesmen and as organizers of large-scale enterprises - the ceremony attracted 5,000 people. A really important set of photographs.
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 2, 2014 10:08:15 GMT -5
(photos deleted) Follows The Woman & Bull Man
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 2, 2014 10:40:36 GMT -5
I found this in "Custer's Conqueror" by William J. Bordeaux (Chapter 14):
"Interest in this ancient ceremony, the Sun Dance of the Sioux, was recently revived on what used to be the Great American Plains by the fiftieth anniversary celebration by the Indians of the establishment of the Rosebud Agency, which was held at Rosebud, South Dakota, commencing on the 18th day of September, 1928, and continuing several days.
That there would be an exhibition of the sun Dance had been advertised far and wide and thousands came hundreds of miles to see it. Permission of the government had been obtained for the old men of the tribe who had either taken part in it fifty years ago or who had seen it performed, to go through the ceremony without experiencing the torture. The authorities would not permit the exhibition of the torture. Among the Indians who assembled to put on the Sun Dance was Chief Follows the Woman, who had taken part in the ceremony three times in the wild days of Indian life, and who bears on his breast the awful scars of the ordeal. Chief Follows the Woman sought permission of the government to go through the actual ceremony again at this celebration, and although old, shrunken and wrinkled, he said he could again stand the torture of the Sun Dance.
Follows the Woman took part in three different sun dances. The last was held 47 years ago three miles south of the present Rosebud Agency. Six indistinct scars appear on his chest, evidence of the gruesome ceremonial dance.
Chief Follows the Woman is over eighty years old, yet he was sincere in his request to be permitted to go through the torture od the actual Sun Dance again before he went to the Happy Hunting Grounds. He declared he could stand this almost superhuman test. He was willing and anxious to risk his life in the trial if permitted to do so."
To me, the description of Follows the Woman, over 80 years old, doesn´t quite fit to the man identified in the photos. Is he instead the man with the pipe bag in the Skinner pic?
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 3, 2014 9:38:54 GMT -5
I wonder if this photo of William Spotted Tail in 1928 was taken on the same occasion:
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Post by ladonna on Jan 4, 2014 11:24:25 GMT -5
this hard i seen the pictures of the Sun Dance on Facebook and now here, I know that Rosebud tribe invited a photographer to take these pictures but i feel it is wrong, this is personal, i love Kingsley but ..............................
they are hard to look at and every part of my being don't believe they should up, I am sorry
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 4, 2014 13:25:02 GMT -5
LaDonna, I`m sorry for being insensitive. If this hurts Lakota feelings in any way I take the photos down.
Again, I apologize.
Dietmar
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Post by kingsleybray on Jan 5, 2014 9:51:22 GMT -5
LaDonna, I respect your view, but I want to reiterate that the Sichangu leaders and holy men and elders, male and female, clearly viewed the Sun-Gazing dance of 1928 as an effort to reach across the ethnic divide and convince administrators and all the BIA powers that be that this ceremony was an act of profound religious devotion, a deeply conceived representation of the world's beauty and renewal, of individual and social dedication and endurance, and an affirmation of a large community's distinctive identity in the transformed conditions of the 20th century. Because of this Rosebud leaders invited in white dignitaries to attend, and photographers (and possibly film makers) to record the events. In my opinion the photographers rose to the challenge, capturing some of the most beautiful ensemble images that convey the profound conviction and beauty of the Sun Dance. That is what the Rosebud people intended in 1928. I am sensitive to your viewpoint - as always, dear friend! - but I felt precisely because of the historical context, that these images should be available for reflection and study. Best wishes, Kingsley.
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Post by ladonna on Jan 5, 2014 21:02:03 GMT -5
I know Kingsley and i agree this is an important part of our lives and history, We know what Rosebud did in 1928 and the ideal of letting world know how strong our beliefs are but it also caused so many problems that we are force to face today, it has created a division between the Lakota nation and Rosebud band. Maybe on a message or email i can explain what this means us. I would like to explain thing that the people are wearing and what is happening but I am not allowed too.
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Post by gregor on Jan 6, 2014 7:44:05 GMT -5
Kinsley , I agree a 100 % with you.
A few years ago I was invited to a Sun Dance on the Rosbud Rez. The dance took place at a hidden place near the White River. It was perfectly clear that taking photographs was not allowed. And all stuck to the bid.
But in the period from 1928 to circa 1940 this was completely different. Sun dances were held on a lot of Reservations (but without piercing) and the public was invited. Taking photographs was allowed because the NDN wanted to demonstrate the cultural meaning of the ceremony for their people. There are a lot of photos of the Crow and Cheyenne reservation, Pine Ridge, Rosebud and of the Standing Rock Rez (1936 : One Bull at Little Eagle) showing Sun Dances. The last photos were probably made in the 1970s (see the book by Thomas E. Mails). LaDonna,I am also of the opinion that photographs must not be taken, when people undergo a religious ceremony and suffer. But on the other Hand we should not submit to self-censorship when these individuals agreed to perform the ceremony publicly and permited the shooting of Pictures.
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 6, 2014 8:17:41 GMT -5
I think we have good reasons from a historians´s point of view to discuss those photos and we have good intensions as well. However, our Indian members will have the last say. Simply because this is an Indian history site. We need to respect it. That is why I have deleted the photos.
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Post by ladonna on Jan 6, 2014 23:05:21 GMT -5
i am sorry i want to do my best to explain our ways and thank you. i understand not wanting to be a part of censorship, on the other hand i think it is about respect. i think we could still have the discussion its just hard to look at the pictures no one done anything wrong, it is just my opinion again i am sorry
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Post by ladonna on Jan 6, 2014 23:08:14 GMT -5
The wi wacipi is the center of our lives, it is done so that we may live, each person has their own reason for making a commitment to dance. each has their own prayers, we have nothing to give but a little of ourselves.
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Post by gregor on Jan 8, 2014 7:08:18 GMT -5
Dear LaDonna, I appreciate your contributions in this forum very very much and (to avoid misunderstandings) I didn’t assume that you wanted to censor anything or anyone. I just wanted to express that it should be /must be possible to discuss things (and photographs) that are "open on the table" (as we say in Germany) for years - even if it is painful. lf we avoid this discussion, then we can’t discuss neither Wounded Knee, nor Auschwitz. I was born 10 years after the end of WW II and I well remember how painful it was here in Germany to talk about the Hitler regime – if they indeed talked about it at all. But we need to talk about the past, to learn something for the future. And – although it is a little bit on another Level, e.g. - l learned that I don’t want to tattoo a number on anybody’s arm, and don’t want anybody to tattoo a number on my childrens arms. You know what I mean. To come back to the topic: I understand and support completely that there is no need to photograph a person who undergoes a religious ceremony and suffers for the wellbeing of his people. This is a totally personal and private matter. Hecel lena oyate kin nipi kta ca (I hope this is reasonably accurate).
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Post by ladonna on Jan 8, 2014 8:28:18 GMT -5
i still would like discussion and don't have a problem with history and explaining cultures i love my culture and way of life, i do believe in talking about the hurtful things i would never want to censor anyone it has more to do with protection of my culture. if this was just my belief i would but this was taught to us by our elders and i respect them with my life and if they say no its no. I want this site to be a place where Natives and historian can come together to share history and their lives, for all of us to learn from each other and order to do that we must respect each other, Many of the historian on this site are amazing people i would like that relationship only to be strengthen so that we can continue to learn from each other.
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