Post by hreinn on Nov 17, 2013 11:36:05 GMT -5
Below are comments from John H. Monnett about Crazy Horse and a decoy party at the Fetterman fight.
1. "there are simply no original Indian accounts that name Crazy Horse as a decoy in the Fetterman fight." [1]
2. "no eyewitnesses claim that he was a decoy." [2]
3. "The scant primary sources merely suggest through inference that Crazy Horse might have participated in Fetterman's defeat. But there are no eyewitnesses who claimed specifically that he was in the battle and no credible sources offer details that he was a decoy." [3]
4. "See the accounts of White Bull, Two Moon, American Horse, Fire Thunder and George Sword. None mentions Crazy Horse as a decoy." [4]
5. (question to Monnett): "What was Crazy Horse's role? I was excited about the prospect of uncovering new tidbits of information about his legendary actions as a decoy on Lodge Trail Ridge at the start of the Fetterman Fight. To my shock, I found just the opposite. Of course, the military primary sources don't mention Crazy Horse at the Fetterman Fight, because none of the officers at Fort Phil Kearny had heard of him yet, and those who encountered him at the fight didn't live to tell about it. All primary source materials on the fight, once the battle reached Lodge Trail Ridge, are Indian eyewitness testimonies. Virtually no Indian original source suggests Crazy Horse was in the Fetterman Fight, let alone participating as a decoy. Fellow Oglala American Horse was a decoy, and possibly George Sword was, too. They were interviewed at a later date, and none mention Crazy Horse. The stories we hear today I traced back to Mari Sandoz, in her novel Crazy Horse, Strange Man of the Oglalas, published in 1942. If Sandoz had access to any aged warriors or children of warriors at that late date who remembered Crazy Horse in the elaborate detail she described in her novel regarding the Fetterman Fight, she did not have the presence of mind to credit them by name." (question to Monnett): "Was Crazy Horse even there? I just cannot see him not being in the battle at all. There just aren't any eyewitness Indian sources to nail it down." [5]
6. "There were no less than 10 interviews, including four with He Dog, Crazy Horse's friend since boyhood. These informants went into detail about Crazy Horse's life from birth to death. None of them mention Crazy Horse's presence at the Fetterman Fight, let alone his being one of the decoys or their leader. Prior to 1930, others like Eli S. Ricker interviewed a number of Lakotas who were in the Fetterman Fight, including fellow Oglala American Horse and George Sword (Sword Owner), both of whom were decoys. Ricker interviewed Horn Chips, also a friend of Crazy Horse's since boyhood. These three warriors make no mention of Crazy Horse at the battle. Other eyewitnesses interviewed in the early 20th century include warriors like White Bear (Minneconjou), Fire Thunder (Oglala), Little Wolf (Cheyenne, whose brother was a decoy killed in the Fetterman Fight) and White Elk (Cheyenne). These warriors were in the battle and told their stories long after the death of Crazy Horse but make no mention of him being a decoy in the Fetterman Fight." [6]
7. "In 1942 Sandoz published Crazy Horse: Strange Man of the Oglalas, actually a "fictional" biography. Here we see for the first time the dramatic exploits of Crazy Horse as a decoy at the Fetterman Fight. Even though the tactics and ruses employed by the decoys are accurate as to cultural content, they were attributed to Big Nose (Cheyenne), whose story as a decoy was told by his brother, Little Wolf, to George B. Grinnell in the early 20th century. Mari Sandoz lists no sources for her claims either in her books or her handwritten notes as to Crazy Horse in respect to these actions. And, as mentioned earlier, there is nothing in the Hinman interviews Sandoz based her book on that relate any hint of Crazy Horse as a decoy in the Fetterman Fight." [7]
8. "But the fact remains that virtually none of the original Indian testimonies by participants in the Fetterman Fight, who knew Crazy Horse or were his contemporaries, even mentioned Crazy Horse as being a decoy in the fight or even being in the fight—and they were interviewed long after Crazy Horse had become famous to the larger world." [8]
9. "If there were living contemporaries who knew Crazy Horse (they were gone by the 1940s) and did indeed remember him in the Fetterman Fight, their stories were never told to the outside world or held secret by family custom." [9]
Literally ALL of Monnett's comments above are invalid.
In view of the references in the reply above and the discussion in the replies below.
Hreinn
References:
1. John H. Monnett "Where A Hundred Soldiers Were Killed" University of New Mexico Press (2008), page 123
2. John H. Monnett "Where A Hundred Soldiers Were Killed" University of New Mexico Press (2008), page 123
3. John H. Monnett "Where A Hundred Soldiers Were Killed" University of New Mexico Press (2008), page 211
4. John H. Monnett "Where A Hundred Soldiers Were Killed" University of New Mexico Press (2008), page 268
5. John H. Monnett in an interview in the magazine Wild West, August 2009; page 15
6. John H. Monnett in the magazine Wild West, December 2009, in Letters From Readers
7. John H. Monnett in the magazine Wild West, December 2009, in Letters From Readers
8. John H. Monnett in the magazine Wild West, December 2009, in Letters From Readers
9. John H. Monnett in the magazine Wild West, December 2009, in Letters From Readers
1. "there are simply no original Indian accounts that name Crazy Horse as a decoy in the Fetterman fight." [1]
2. "no eyewitnesses claim that he was a decoy." [2]
3. "The scant primary sources merely suggest through inference that Crazy Horse might have participated in Fetterman's defeat. But there are no eyewitnesses who claimed specifically that he was in the battle and no credible sources offer details that he was a decoy." [3]
4. "See the accounts of White Bull, Two Moon, American Horse, Fire Thunder and George Sword. None mentions Crazy Horse as a decoy." [4]
5. (question to Monnett): "What was Crazy Horse's role? I was excited about the prospect of uncovering new tidbits of information about his legendary actions as a decoy on Lodge Trail Ridge at the start of the Fetterman Fight. To my shock, I found just the opposite. Of course, the military primary sources don't mention Crazy Horse at the Fetterman Fight, because none of the officers at Fort Phil Kearny had heard of him yet, and those who encountered him at the fight didn't live to tell about it. All primary source materials on the fight, once the battle reached Lodge Trail Ridge, are Indian eyewitness testimonies. Virtually no Indian original source suggests Crazy Horse was in the Fetterman Fight, let alone participating as a decoy. Fellow Oglala American Horse was a decoy, and possibly George Sword was, too. They were interviewed at a later date, and none mention Crazy Horse. The stories we hear today I traced back to Mari Sandoz, in her novel Crazy Horse, Strange Man of the Oglalas, published in 1942. If Sandoz had access to any aged warriors or children of warriors at that late date who remembered Crazy Horse in the elaborate detail she described in her novel regarding the Fetterman Fight, she did not have the presence of mind to credit them by name." (question to Monnett): "Was Crazy Horse even there? I just cannot see him not being in the battle at all. There just aren't any eyewitness Indian sources to nail it down." [5]
6. "There were no less than 10 interviews, including four with He Dog, Crazy Horse's friend since boyhood. These informants went into detail about Crazy Horse's life from birth to death. None of them mention Crazy Horse's presence at the Fetterman Fight, let alone his being one of the decoys or their leader. Prior to 1930, others like Eli S. Ricker interviewed a number of Lakotas who were in the Fetterman Fight, including fellow Oglala American Horse and George Sword (Sword Owner), both of whom were decoys. Ricker interviewed Horn Chips, also a friend of Crazy Horse's since boyhood. These three warriors make no mention of Crazy Horse at the battle. Other eyewitnesses interviewed in the early 20th century include warriors like White Bear (Minneconjou), Fire Thunder (Oglala), Little Wolf (Cheyenne, whose brother was a decoy killed in the Fetterman Fight) and White Elk (Cheyenne). These warriors were in the battle and told their stories long after the death of Crazy Horse but make no mention of him being a decoy in the Fetterman Fight." [6]
7. "In 1942 Sandoz published Crazy Horse: Strange Man of the Oglalas, actually a "fictional" biography. Here we see for the first time the dramatic exploits of Crazy Horse as a decoy at the Fetterman Fight. Even though the tactics and ruses employed by the decoys are accurate as to cultural content, they were attributed to Big Nose (Cheyenne), whose story as a decoy was told by his brother, Little Wolf, to George B. Grinnell in the early 20th century. Mari Sandoz lists no sources for her claims either in her books or her handwritten notes as to Crazy Horse in respect to these actions. And, as mentioned earlier, there is nothing in the Hinman interviews Sandoz based her book on that relate any hint of Crazy Horse as a decoy in the Fetterman Fight." [7]
8. "But the fact remains that virtually none of the original Indian testimonies by participants in the Fetterman Fight, who knew Crazy Horse or were his contemporaries, even mentioned Crazy Horse as being a decoy in the fight or even being in the fight—and they were interviewed long after Crazy Horse had become famous to the larger world." [8]
9. "If there were living contemporaries who knew Crazy Horse (they were gone by the 1940s) and did indeed remember him in the Fetterman Fight, their stories were never told to the outside world or held secret by family custom." [9]
Literally ALL of Monnett's comments above are invalid.
In view of the references in the reply above and the discussion in the replies below.
Hreinn
References:
1. John H. Monnett "Where A Hundred Soldiers Were Killed" University of New Mexico Press (2008), page 123
2. John H. Monnett "Where A Hundred Soldiers Were Killed" University of New Mexico Press (2008), page 123
3. John H. Monnett "Where A Hundred Soldiers Were Killed" University of New Mexico Press (2008), page 211
4. John H. Monnett "Where A Hundred Soldiers Were Killed" University of New Mexico Press (2008), page 268
5. John H. Monnett in an interview in the magazine Wild West, August 2009; page 15
6. John H. Monnett in the magazine Wild West, December 2009, in Letters From Readers
7. John H. Monnett in the magazine Wild West, December 2009, in Letters From Readers
8. John H. Monnett in the magazine Wild West, December 2009, in Letters From Readers
9. John H. Monnett in the magazine Wild West, December 2009, in Letters From Readers