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Post by happyjack on Oct 1, 2013 0:02:12 GMT -5
Several years ago I attended a lecture in Tucson given by archeologist Deni Seymour. According to her she has identified a camp in the Dragoon mountains as being in the 1450 period. I am going by memory so I hope I am not giving the wrong date. She stated that she had found that the Chokonen group used a distinct hide piercer that allowed her to id sites used by that group. She further stated that after she had noted this tool, she was able to reconsider other previously known sites where this tool had been found. This has led her to claim that unlike other groups such as the Mescaleros, the Chokonen group came down through the Rocky Mountains rather than the plains as previously thought. Researchers have always believed that they ended up in southern Arizona after having been pushed out by more powerful tribes such as the Comanchees. I think it was one of Eve Ball's books where her informant stated to the effect that writers often referred to them as "desert people" when they always had known they were "mountain people." Again, this is from my memory and I hope I have provided accuracy in what I write. In my mind it is significant that after such a long journey they chose this area of Apacheria to live life.
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Post by dT on Oct 1, 2013 19:40:25 GMT -5
The $64,000 question is ... why did the Chiricahua's develop into a tribe that specialized so much on raiding? Many Native American tribes conducted various sorts of raids to get supplies and obtain horses. But it seems that the Chiricahua's took this lifestyle and turned it into a warrior culture - they raised it to a much higher level. They preferred to be raider-hunters, rather than just farmers or normal hunters. They seemed to have occupied the top place in the "food chain" - a strategy that did not make them popular with some surrounding peoples.
dT
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Post by ulzana on Oct 2, 2013 14:09:58 GMT -5
Maybe because their territory was not good to an extensive agriculture?
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Post by ulzana on Oct 2, 2013 14:10:37 GMT -5
Maybe because their territory was not good to an extensive agriculture?
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Post by dT on Oct 3, 2013 9:14:06 GMT -5
it is possible you are right - especially for some of the places in southern Arizona. the mountains provide some hunting. but much of the land is not suitable for farming. so if the Chiricahua's wanted to get ahead, perhaps they had no choice but to capture the goods belonging to other people. it is very clear that they liked to raid supplies belonging to the Mexicans. This seems to have been a major source of useful property to them. Maybe there was also old resentment because the Apaches were forced away from their plands which used to be in Mexico - as the Spanish pushed them northwards. So they hardly even blinked an eye at the thought of running raids into towns in Mexico. it was very much in the lifestyle of the Chirichaua to do such things, at least in the 1800's.
Due to the rough terrrain and the deserts of Arizona, this caused the Chiricahua warriors to become exceptionally strong. tough as nails. they were forced to cover very long distances on foot. this means they had to travel a long way, with only a few items that could be carried on their body. and then they would have to fight. such demands produce warriors with exceptional endurance, very resourceful, and cunning.
dT
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Post by Second on Oct 3, 2013 20:10:05 GMT -5
After asking many elders and hearing others talk. I have come this conclusion. The Inde, Dine, (the people) came here from Canada. They settled in what is today the States of NM, eastern Arizona and western Texas. After the arrival of the Spaniards, they became known as Navajos. The Dine saw the arrival of the Spaniards as a real threat. They subdivided into groups and headed in different directions. If you look at a map you will see that they didnt settle that far at all, but far enough and roughed enough to be safe. You can almost draw a horizontal line and find the sites they chose to settle in. It was said that when the thread of the intruders was over, we will reunite. We will always know who we are by our language and our songs. The biggest group settled in at Ojo Caliente. They called them selves Chihine, other Indian Tribes called them Apachu, (Enemy) Thus the name Apache was born. After the arrival of white settlers, they subdivided again. The ones that remained became known as Cooper Indians, Canada Alamosa Indians, Warm Springs Apaches. The ones that settled in the Chiricahuas became known as the Chiricahua Apaches and so forth. Spaniards reported that the Navajos were farmers. Victorio descendents have stated that Victorio and his people were planting crops at Ojo Caliente. The soldiers rode their horses thru the crops, thus infuriating Victorio and causing him to up-rise. Descendents of Massai have said that Massai was raising crops at Ojo Caliente with his Mescalero wife and children. Apache raiding was a result of many factors, the main one being on the run, a deep hate for Mexicans and negative results at their attempts at farming as mentioned above. Anyone that knows an Apache or a Chiricahua Apache to be more specific quickly learns that they are loving, peaceful,kind and the list goes on. The media made them look like wild animals. u.S. Generals described them as the Tigers of the Human Race. The bottom line is they were regular people forced to fight and defend their land. It was their terrain that made it almost impossible to capture them. The Seminoles of Florida, the only Unconquered Nation, achieved their title by hiding in the swamps. Today these two Nations stand far apart from others that didnt have such roughed refuge.
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Post by dT on Oct 4, 2013 14:18:22 GMT -5
Second - thanks for your response. you make a good point that the Apache people are "loving, peaceful and kind". the image that came from the time period that is sometimes called the Apache Wars - was a time when the Apache's fought tooth and nail for what they had. As one of the Nde people on thos forum said .. it was a war with no quarter given and no quarter taken. So things were very rough and brutal. The images from that time have colored the impressions of American society. There never was much of a chance for Americans as a whole to think about who Apaches really were.
Still, when I go back and read the accounts from that time, like the book by Jason Betzinez and also the book by Britton Davis (who was Nd'aa and not liked by Apaches) ... what comes across is that people like Geronimo, Juh, Cochise and others had a genuine love for being warriors. I don't think they just went on raids because they had to. I think they really liked it - and excelled at it. They were extremely good at what they did. This part of Apache culture was fierce ... they had created a warrior society. Even by the standards of other Native American tribes, I would say that the top-level Apache's (certainly including the Chiricahua's) were at a pinnacle in terms of strength and endurance. General Crook was not far from the truth - when he called them human tigers.
These comments are not to put down the accomplishments of other great warriors from other tribes such as Crazy Horse - who were also extraordinary in their own right.
dT
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Post by coeurrouge on Oct 4, 2013 16:06:27 GMT -5
i think did a raid was an economic necesserary and social especially for men. On my country on the 1980', it was said "You are man if you have done your military service" meaning carry a weapon.
I think it was the same thing for Apache men, they have to proove to be a warrior (and after the right to marry, had possession and a social rank in the society). Only going on raid, first as a dikohe, and after as a warrior can help the men. A good hunter or farmer was recognize too, I think, but after become a warrior and less than a good raider.
At this time when you have ennemies that destroyed your farmland, you have to die, accept the domination of the newcomer, farm again and pay a tribute or raid your ennemies. The Apaches, nomadic and fierce Nation chose the third way against the pueblos, pimas, papagos and spaniards and then created overtime their lifestyle.
And just an opinion : The only fearful ennemies of the Chiricahuas at fair battles, were not the Mexicans, the Americans but the Tahamures of the Sierra Madre, no?
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Post by dT on Oct 4, 2013 20:09:17 GMT -5
the Tarahumara people (really Raramuri people) are great runners ... possibly better even than Apaches. I'm sure that when you're talking about people who can run these exceptional distances, it just boils down to personal ability. But I would not be surprised if the Tarahumara could stay ahead, or could avoid, an Apache raiding party. Quite possibly that was exactly what they did. I have no idea how the two different tribes compared in their fighting ability. But since the Apaches once held territory all the way down Mexico (almost to where Mexico City is located now) the two tribes must have coexisted, or had neighboring lands. So each of them must have been able to hold their own ground.
Some Tarahumara scouts served with the Mexican forces when they hunted down Victorio and his band at Tres Castillos. But my guess is that the Tarahumara were primarily acting as trackers, and keeping watch ahead of the Mexicans.
Today the Tarahunara have suffered very badly in Mexico - they are a beaten down (economically) and depressed people. Its very sad. A lot of the trees from their Sierra Madre area are gone, and drug dealers are also controlling their ability to grow crops. It's very bad and their whole traditional lifestyle is in serious danger of going away.
dT
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Post by jasper4 on Oct 18, 2013 10:44:00 GMT -5
After asking many elders and hearing others talk. I have come this conclusion. The Inde, Dine, (the people) came here from Canada. They settled in what is today the States of NM, eastern Arizona and western Texas. After the arrival of the Spaniards, they became known as Navajos. The Dine saw the arrival of the Spaniards as a real threat. They subdivided into groups and headed in different directions. If you look at a map you will see that they didnt settle that far at all, but far enough and roughed enough to be safe. You can almost draw a horizontal line and find the sites they chose to settle in. It was said that when the thread of the intruders was over, we will reunite. We will always know who we are by our language and our songs. The biggest group settled in at Ojo Caliente. They called them selves Chihine, other Indian Tribes called them Apachu, (Enemy) Thus the name Apache was born. After the arrival of white settlers, they subdivided again. The ones that remained became known as Cooper Indians, Canada Alamosa Indians, Warm Springs Apaches. The ones that settled in the Chiricahuas became known as the Chiricahua Apaches and so forth. Spaniards reported that the Navajos were farmers. Victorio descendents have stated that Victorio and his people were planting crops at Ojo Caliente. The soldiers rode their horses thru the crops, thus infuriating Victorio and causing him to up-rise. Descendents of Massai have said that Massai was raising crops at Ojo Caliente with his Mescalero wife and children. Apache raiding was a result of many factors, the main one being on the run, a deep hate for Mexicans and negative results at their attempts at farming as mentioned above. Anyone that knows an Apache or a Chiricahua Apache to be more specific quickly learns that they are loving, peaceful,kind and the list goes on. The media made them look like wild animals. u.S. Generals described them as the Tigers of the Human Race. The bottom line is they were regular people forced to fight and defend their land. It was their terrain that made it almost impossible to capture them. The Seminoles of Florida, the only Unconquered Nation, achieved their title by hiding in the swamps. Today these two Nations stand far apart from others that didnt have such roughed refuge. I agree with this to a point as the Canada connection is due to the dialect of the differt tribes of the inde which is kind of the same to the northern cuzins. I would be kind of watning Mithlo to add here but I feel we never came form no place but the earth and white painted woman had two sons child born of water and killer of monsters who made the earth as we know it today befor the gringo and the mex were groups who hunted the Nde due to our 'no take crap from anyone and or gave no quarter and took no quarter'. a former chairperson who once said to me ' don't trust the Mexicans due to they are evil and lost souls' and or 'don't turst the gringo due to with them their is no right way'. I say this her name will remain silent but she was born a POW and died at the hands of a drunk driver. I try to follow traditional ways but with the scope of trying to live in a modern world which makes no d**n sense, for dying aint hard it is just a changing of worlds Enjun.
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Post by Mithlo on Oct 20, 2013 19:01:50 GMT -5
Have heard about those folks up there over many years. Most that I have heard came from these "Highly Educated" Historian's....Scientist....Archaeologist....and Anthropologist. Problem is....these are the same "Professional's" that claim the earth was created by a "BIG BOOM" and that mankind is descended from APES and MONKEY's!!!! This....along with "hundred's of years" of their lying to native people.....I find it near impossible to put much faith into their weird IDEA's....OPINION's....and THEORY's!!!! Now....as far as the South-West(and surrounding area)....is concerned....I have always understood that God created this land for the N'de people......and the N'de people for this land....they are "one-in-the-same",....has alway's been this way....we have alway's been here....and alway's will be!
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Post by dT on Oct 20, 2013 20:26:55 GMT -5
Mithlo and Jasper4 - lately your comments on here have been very helpful. they have generated understanding. Mithlo said: "They asked for no quarter and gave no quarter". Jasper4 said: " don't trust the Mexicans due to they are evil and lost souls' and or 'don't trust the gringo due to with them their is no right way'. these comments clear up a lot of things.
Jasper4: i would say it differently. maybe like this: "The Nd'aa know the right way but very often they don't follow it - especially because of greed.". But in the end it amounts to the same thing - the same end result.
Mithlo you said: "....I have always understood that God created this land for the N'de people......and the N'de people for this land". yes true. much that went wrong in the land after the POW times would NOT have happened if the Nde still owned the land. and those problems are still going on today. but we canot turn time backwards, unfortunately.
dT
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matthew12
New Member
Hello folks, glad to join and engage in some interesting conversations.
Posts: 2
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Post by matthew12 on Oct 23, 2013 10:27:24 GMT -5
The Apaches were excellent agriculturalist. The only problem was that the encroaching colonials were constantly usurping bottom land and water which makes it difficult to grow anything. So they just switched to raiding which is a form of taxation. The logic goes like this; if these crazy colonials are not going to respect Apache land claims, then they will pay with annual or bi-annual raids for goods that make up for their disrespect. Raiding was a traditional way to acquire goods and is often seen as agriculture. Warfare and farming are a lot alike to Apaches and Navajo. If one is denied than the other is elevated. Apaches were dealing with unnatural perturbations for over a hundred years and they gradually turned to raiding to fill in their supply gap. Apache were good raiders before contact and after contact they became excellent raiders because they were forced to.
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Post by dT on Oct 23, 2013 11:47:28 GMT -5
thank you. there are two parts to your statement that I find very interesting. i hope someone can comment some more.
the first is this observation: "Warfare and farming are a lot alike to Apaches and Navajo." that thought needs some more clarification. because other cultures do not mix these two ideas so they are joined together - at least mentally. other cultures see these activities as being quite separate. so it would be interesting to know why Apache and Navajo join thse two things in their minds.
also you said: "they became excellent raiders because they were forced to." yes - again you are right. their abilities as raiders became excellent - truly excellent. but there is something about the Apache character, about the outlook of the whole people, that is unique. i am reminded of a comment that Jason Betzinez made in his book. he said that it seemed to him like white people only made war every 6-7 years, and otherwise they were at peace. but the Apaches were always at war. and in many ways he is right. it is not so much that Nde were constantly fighting. but it is that they were always undergoing hardships - great difficulties. it seems as though those difficulties just do not go away for the Nde - they are always happening. So somehow the Nde responded to this by deciding not to give up. they seem to have become a people who will put up with great adversity, and still continue their lifestyle. I hope others can comment on this.
dT
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Post by jasper4 on Nov 1, 2013 11:53:19 GMT -5
colonials means who and whom the fact of the matter is the spaniards then the mexican then the gringo came with nothing but death, lies, greed, thus the way of life was WAR for the NDE. The fact that migration of bands from az and NM into what is now old mexico was a long standing way of life. I say any can have the want of freedom and want of living free, aint that what started the manifest ripoff by the gringo, or the way of the euro wanting freedom of religion while preaching of god yet not praticing they preach. But aint that the way of the human on this rock, for who is perfect but those whose pov is blind3d by their own ignorance.
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