I'll do it again. Here is a picture of Taza- Son of Cochise

[besh]

Thank you Penjady for your pictures & well thought out discussion about Taza. Regarding height: Your points are well made. Tom Horn described Geronimo as "6 feet tall" & we know he was several inches shorter than that but some men w/ strong personalities seem much larger than they are. Taza, Naiche, Cochise, Geronimo, etc. no doubt had such personalities & carried themselves w/ a dignity that would make them appear much larger than they were. Having known & worked w/ several short, stocky White Mountain Apaches I've always found the book descriptions of very tall Apaches amusing but not well researched. Mangas Coloradas was known to be a very big man but the likelihood of even him clearing 6' is questionable. I was once astonished to hear a friend describe me as "6' tall, 280 lbs., & a full-blooded Apache Chief". I'm , 5'8", 220 lbs., not Apache @ all but 1/2 Mohawk 1/2 Dutch and certainly not a chief... As a side note: The Apaches I worked w/ were all quiet, a bit bashful but had a fantastic sense of humor & were a lot of fun to be around. Thanks again for sharing your 1st hand insight.

[jasper4]

Mangas Coloradas was known to be a very big man but the likelihood of even him clearing 6' is questionable. Conjecture is that a guess. Point Dasodahae was well over 6 foot as the fact told to me as a boy in oklahoma. By the 'Old Ones', Chiricahua were noted to be large and broad shouldered and Tall for the time. I say this my grandfather was 6 foot, my uncles are 6'2" and 6'3" call it Genetic dna. Thus back to Mangas or he who sits there he was noted for his height and the size of his head. This was the fact why he was beheaded and his skull taken as a sideshow and item of interest by the gringos.

[Mithlo]

This is True!!!!

[dT]

by the way ... I was just looking at the originaL post by Penjady again.
He reveals some things ... that have never been said anywhere else.
this is the only time that the true motive for sending the Apaches to Washington DC has been discussed.
it's a very sad commentary ... but typical of human behavior.

I have no idea what happened to Taza.
maybe he WAS poisoned. but why only him, specifically?
is it possible that something that he ate caused an allergic reaction, and the death was not intentional?
again, how would we know?
I am not saying that Penjady is wrong ... it is just difficult to ever find the exact truth about history.

dT

[jasper4]

Also a quick note- the Chiricahuas, even to this day, know that Taza was poisoned and killed in DC. per Penjady which I say yes to.

[dT]

thank you Jasper4 ... if a lot of Chiricahua's believe this - they must have a very good reason.
no wonder there is long-term bitterness over everything that has happened.
so many things.

dT

[claraty]

Honored to be part of this forum. I have long wondered at the convenient death of Taza, but cannot locate evidence to the allegation of poison (which had been.done before). Can anyone provide a link or source, or is thus an oral history? Thank you. Claraty

[jasper4]

Clum, in a hurry to marry his fiancé, left promptly after the service and never bothered to place a marker on Taza’s grave. When the Indian Agent returned to the Chiricahua community, he was pressed for information about their leader’s death. Clum’s details were vague. Many Apache suspected that Taza had not died of pneumonia, believing he may have been poisoned. This inflamed the tense political relationship between the Apache and United States. Taza’s younger brother, Naiche, became a Chief. Naiche did not have the same influence over the other chiefs the way his father and brother did. The reservation was closed. These events led to Victorio’s War and late Geronimo wars. A decade after Taza’s death, the entire tribe of Chiricahua became prisoners of war in Florida, Alabama and Ft. Sill Oklahoma for 28 years. Some children grew into adulthood never knowing freedom. In 1913, the tribe was split and some returned to the Southwest. One year later the remaining were allotted land in Oklahoma. These descendents are the Fort Sill Apache Nation of today. It’s interesting to think about how history might have been written differently for the Chiricahua if Taza had returned home.

Taza’s grave remained unmarked until the American Indian Society of Washington designed a marker bearing his image and erected it in 1971. At the time, the image was thought to be Taza. Today, there are no known photographs of Taza and the image used for the marker is not the leader.
source Buried History: “Hear Me, My Chiefs” Rachael Cassidy is a Cultural Interpreter at the Smithsonian's National Museum of the American Indian in Washington, D.C., and an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma.

[jasper4]

Jul 22, 2013 23:49:58 GMT -5 penjady said:

I had a long discussion with an historian friend of mine recently.. I told him to put things in context of 1880s to get a good idea of life. The ideals, thoughts, nature, and human interaction was barbaric compared to 2013! Since we are still continuing as a culture, our ideals are similar to what was in 1880s. As much as it is the same, things are different.

in 2013,the average height of a man is only 5'8". In 1880, the avg height was 5'6" for all men. Now account for apaches living in their environment, their nutrition was not maxed out so they didn't reach the full height spectrum! In 1880' the average age expectancy was only 40 years. Do you think the apaches exceeded those numbers? Sure there are few that exceeded those figures but law of averages has to be looked at.

Some will question the name taza... Yes it means big guy. But when you think of it it terms of 2013, you think of 6'4" 260 lbs. well when u think of it in 1870, it was for a big guy in terms of weight. There were only a few large size individuals especially apaches who had to run daily as part of daily culture. Apaches are very descriptive with their names. You must ask yourselves, do the apaches have a word for tall guy in their language? You darn right they did. And they have a word for big. They have a word for fat. They have a word for skinny. Every imaginable description, they had a word for it. But i guess don't take my word for it. What do i know about the language.

I am going to be frank here and say it straight. If i upset you, so be it. I aint here to be your friend. i am trying to help you understand Chiricahua culture, the true history. I am an Chiricahua Apache. As for several others on the board also. We have an upward battle dealing with books and hollywood stereotyping on our culture. 75% of gibberish on chiricahua apaches out there is nonsense! There are fake indians, other indians and people of color trying to be us. Trying to be me. Im upset with it. Its full of baloney! As i told a german "historian" this month that came to mescalero... Do you want to know the truth or are you going to continue to feed me some book? As asa daklugie told eve ball, do you want to hear it from me or you want to believe some second hand writer? Ive been biting my tongue for a long time on this... But i believe enough is enough.

Just as with the courts of law, you want to find the best supporting evidence to help you. If ONE document has that support you may need, its off to the races and their is no changing your mind. THESE WORDS BEST REFLECT of how I feel at times yet I am not as good with my words as other Chiricahuas.

90% on this board knows apache from what they have read whether it be one book or 100 books. 5% know apaches because they have been around the culure such as a trip. The other 5% are true blooded apaches trying to help you understand. I am tired of hollywood trying to tell me and my family how i should be. I am tired of books trying to make me someone else. I am not a bloodthirsty savage hostile with killing on my mind day and night!

There are wonderful sources on this board... Mainly Mithlo, that will help you out. Not because he is a nice guy(i have never met him) but because he wants it right for the future. He knows his stuff. This new book by alicia... Has many wonderful names as sources, many of these people i knew of personally. Not a name in a book. I know of thier children and childrens children.

As avid historians on apaches as anyone in the world, you might consider to open your mind up just a little bit on what we are sharing with you because what chirichauas share with you now is for a purpose. To help you better understand the chiricahua. And we dont share it very often with everyone. Especially with randam people on the internet.

Respectfully,

Penjady

[Dian]

I would very much like to receive an email from the man that wrote this information about Apaches. My email address is:
[e-mail]
I would love to learn more about your culture from somebody who actually knows the truth. Blessings, Dian

[salvesg]

Helo
Is there a possibility that I could acquire a copy of the photo of Taza, son of Cochise from his trip with Clum to DC..

[coeurrouge]

Hello and happy New Year,

Glad if you can but be carefull. We (or Historians) already identified the man Noche (Chokonen-Bedonkohe, relative of Zele) as Taza or Cathla (a Chokonen leader who made the trip with Taza in Washington in summer of 1876) as Taza.

What is sure is that Taza was very strong maybe heavy for an Apache. Good luck.