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Post by hreinn on May 25, 2013 19:45:11 GMT -5
This has perhaps been discussed before. But it would be good to have it confirmed who really signed the 1825 treaty on behalf of the Oglala. Can we make it clear once and for all ? According to a text of the treaty available on the Internet, these men signed the 1825 treaty on behalf of the Oglala Lakota: Chiefs: 1. Ta-tun-ca-nash-sha, the Standing Buffalo, his x mark, [L. S.] 2. He-a-long-ga, the Shoulder, his x mark, [L. S.] 3. Ma-to-weet-co, the Full White Bear, his x mark, [L. S.] 4. Wa-na-re-wag-she-go, the Ghost Boy, his x mark, [L. S.] Warriors: 1. Ek-hah-ka-sap-pa, the Black Elk, his x mark, [L. S.] 2. Tah-tong-ish-nan-na, the One Buffalo, his x mark, [L. S.] 3. Mah-to-ta-tong-ca, the Buffalo White Bear, his x mark, [L. S.] 4. Nah-ge-nish-ge-ah, the Mad Soul, his x mark, [L. S.] digital.library.okstate.edu/kappler/vol2/treaties/ogl0230.htm Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on May 25, 2013 19:47:28 GMT -5
There are only 2 out of 8 names who are certain to be correctly translated. Chief 1 "Ta-tun-ca-nash-sha, the Standing Buffalo, his x mark, [L. S.]" Where "Ta-tun-ca-nash-sha" is Tatanka Najin = Tȟatȟáŋka Nážiŋ Meaning Standing Bull.
Warrior 1 "Ek-hah-ka-sap-pa, the Black Elk, his x mark, [L. S.]" Where "Ek-hah-ka-sap-pa" is Hehaka Sapa = Heȟáka SápA. Meaning Black Elk. Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on May 25, 2013 19:54:49 GMT -5
2 out of 8 names are obviously incorrectly translated: Chief 3 "Ma-to-weet-co, the Full White Bear, his x mark, [L. S.]" "Ma-to-weet-co" is the Lakota name Mato Witko = Matȟó Witkó Which means Crazy Bear. But not Full White Bear. Warrior 3 "Mah-to-ta-tong-ca, the Buffalo White Bear, his x mark, [L. S.]" "Mah-to-ta-tong-ca" is the Lakota name Mato Tatanka = Matȟó Tȟatȟáŋka Which means Bull Bear. But not Buffalo White Bear. Note how both names have in common the translation "White Bear". Does that tells us something ?
The Lakota word for the colour white is "ská" (ska), which is obviously not part of these Bear names.
The phrase "Full" in "Full White Bear" in the name of Chief 3, could indicate that he is a senior and closely related to Warrior 3. In support of what has earlier been proposed, i.e. perhaps we can pair together the chief and warrior of the same "number". For example Chief 3 is perhaps from the same band as Warrior 3. At least that is correct for Chief 1 and Warrior 1, both belonging to the Hunkpatila band. As has earlier been pointed out by Kingsley Bray and George Hyde. Note how the writer writes the word Bear (Mato = Matȟó) in 2 different ways: 1. Ma-to (chief 3) 2. Mah-to (warrior 3) Perhaps reflecting different clarity of the pronunciation of the person who speaks the name. Either of the Lakota person or the interpreter. As well as how well the writer is able to grasp what he hears. It is interesting to note how the writer noticed better the detail of the pronunciation of the Bull word when he hears it for the second time (name of Warrior 3). Because he obviously hears the special "h" sound and includes that in the later name Mah-to (vs. Ma-to), as is reflected in the modern and correct writing of the word = Matȟó. Except the writer puts the "h" in a wrong place, i.e. before the "t", instead of after the "t" (Matȟó).
The same inconsistency shows up in 3 different versions of the word Bull (Tatanka =Tȟatȟáŋka): 1. Ta-tun-ca- (in Ta-tun-ca-nash-sha, the Standing Buffalo) (Chief 1) 2. Tah-tong (in Tah-tong-ish-nan-na, the One Buffalo) (Warrior 2) 3. ta-tong-ca (in Mah-to-ta-tong-ca, the Buffalo White Bear) (Warrior 3) Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on May 25, 2013 19:57:52 GMT -5
The name of One Buffalo is circa correct. Warrior 2 "Tah-tong-ish-nan-na, the One Buffalo, his x mark, [L. S.]" The "Tah-tong" part is Tatanka =Tȟatȟáŋka = Bull. The "ish-nan-na" part is not straightforward. But taken into consideration the translation as One it could represents: 1. išná = to be alone/to be the only one 2. išnála = alone 3. išnášnala = each one alone
Although 2 of these words include the letter "l" which is not in the 1825 version. And although the first word does not include repetition of "nan-na" as in the 1825 version. But it is perhaps reasonable close enough. Therefore a better translation is Lone Bull, instead of One Bull. And perhaps said so in 1825, but the writer perhaps misheard it ? Because Lone Bull vs. One Bull sounds similar. We recognize Lone Bull, who belonged to Southern Oglala. Or does anyone have another idea for the "ish-nan-na" part ?
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on May 25, 2013 20:07:08 GMT -5
Another 2 out of 8 names could be partly correctly translated.
Warrior 4 "Nah-ge-nish-ge-ah, the Mad Soul, his x mark, [L. S.]" The "Nah-ge" part is the Lakota word Nagi = Nağí = Soul. Note there is a difference between nagi (nağí) and wanagi (wanağí). Nagi is a soul within a body (when we are alive). Wanagi is a soul without a body (when we are "dead"), and therefore means a ghost or a spirit. (This understanding and distinguish is one of the things which makes the Lakota culture interesting) The "nish-ge-ah" part is not obvious to mean Mad. It only means Mad if it is supposed to be the Lakota word hiŋské (hinske/hiske), which means angry. But that is not good enough fit. What do you say ? Is there another translation possible ?
Chief 4 "Wa-na-re-wag-she-go, the Ghost Boy, his x mark, [L. S.]" The "Wa-na-re" part could be the word Wanagi = Wanağí = Ghost. Note that "Wa-na-re" contains the letter "r". A "r" sound does not exist in Lakota language. So it is obviously wrongly written by the writer. But what it representate is an open question. Although taken here to representate "g" in wanagi (wanağí). Do you have a better idea for a translation of "Wa-na-re" or "Wan-na-re-wag" ? It is difficult to see that "wag-she-go" means boy. Becasue Lakota words for boy are not close to this: 1. hoksila = hokšíla = a boy 2. semni = semní = teenager 3. naúŋkče = teenager 4. siŋté = teenager 5. hakela = hakéla = youngest or last-born 6. nigesla = niğéšla = youngest or last-born (northern) Do you have any idea how to translate this name ? Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on May 25, 2013 20:13:03 GMT -5
The translation of Shoulder is difficult to accept:
Chief 2 "He-a-long-ga, the Shoulder, his x mark, [L. S.]" None Lakota words related to shoulder are close to "He-a-long-ga", as can be seen by the following: 1. hiŋyéte = top of the shoulder 2. tȟapétu = the shoulder region, shoulder-blade area of the back 3. aȟčó = shoulder joint; arm (especially the upper part above the elbow) 4. abló = shoulder blade At first sight, the closest word to "He-a-long-ga" seems to be: 1. héȟloğeča = hollow horned buffalo 2. ȟloğeča = to be hollow
Does that rings any bells ? Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on May 25, 2013 20:30:02 GMT -5
So it seems to be like this:
Chiefs:
1. Standing Bull 2. ? 3. Crazy Bear 4. Ghost ...
Warriors:
1. Black Elk 2. Lone Bull 3. Bull Bear 4. ... Soul
Hreinn
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Post by carlo on May 26, 2013 1:59:37 GMT -5
Hreinn, Chief 3: "Full White Bear", this is a actually a typo by the transcriber and should be FOOL Bear. The transcriber likely understood "Fool" to mean "Full", an understandable mistake. I think "White" Bear was possibly a distinction from the common Black Bear and could mean Grizzly Bear. In any case, we are talking about the chief Fool Bear here. Carlo
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Post by carlo on May 26, 2013 2:34:35 GMT -5
Chief 1: I think the last part, "sha" could mean ša, which translates to Red. Is this chief Standing Red Buffalo / Red Standing Buffalo? Chief 2: I think "a-long" sounds a bit like ablo (shoulder blade), so his name might actually include the word Shoulder Chief 4: I think the second part actually does mean hoksila (boy). At least "wagshe", sounds a lot like "hoksi" if you pronounce it correctly in Lakota. Remember that the transcribers had no knowledge of the language and often made simple, 'phonetical' mistakes.
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Post by kingsleybray on May 26, 2013 16:44:22 GMT -5
Oglala signatories to the Atkinson Treaty, 1825:
Chiefs:
1. Ta-tun-ca-nash-sha, the Standing Buffalo, his x mark, [L. S.] 2. He-a-long-ga, the Shoulder, his x mark, [L. S.] 3. Ma-to-weet-co, the Full White Bear, his x mark, [L. S.] 4. Wa-na-re-wag-she-go, the Ghost Boy, his x mark, [L. S.]
Warriors:
1. Ek-hah-ka-sap-pa, the Black Elk, his x mark, [L. S.] 2. Tah-tong-ish-nan-na, the One Buffalo, his x mark, [L. S.] 3. Mah-to-ta-tong-ca, the Buffalo White Bear, his x mark, [L. S.] 4. Nah-ge-nish-ge-ah, the Mad Soul, his x mark, [L. S.]
Chiefs:
Tatanka Nazhin , Standing Bull
? Shoulder
Mato Witko, Crazy Bear (Fool White Bear - the term white bear was applied to the grizzly)
Nagi Hokshila, Ghost Boy
Warriors:
Hehaka Sapa, Black Elk
Tatanka Ishnala, Lone Bull
Mato Tatanka, Bull Bear
Nagi Gnashkinyan, Mad Soul
George Hyde, in RED CLOUD'S FOLK, p. 40, gave an analysis of the names, suggesting that in the pairing of chiefs and warriors, we have clues to contemporary band structure. The first pairing, Standing Bull and Black Elk, he thought must the the True Oglala band, "now once more recognized as the head-band" - i.e. the leading band assigned the position at the horns of the tribal camp circle. Standing Bull he plausibly suggested to be the son of the Standing Bull named in the first entry of the American Horse winter count, "who had discovered the Black Hills about the year 1775."
My suggestion: Makula (left Heron) told Scudder Mekeel in 1931 that the later Standing Bull, born c. 1836, belonged to the Hunkpatila band. This is not contradictory, since the Hunkpatila and the True Oglala were sister bands. Note that head warrior Black Elk, the grandfather of Nicholas Black Elk, belonged to the Hunkpatila tiyoshpaye also associated with the Crazy Horse family: he would have been a 'brother' to Crazy Horse's paternal grandfather Makes the Song. My hunch would be that Standing Bull-Black Elk represent the Hunkpatila.
The second pairing, chief Shoulder and warrior Lone Bull, "was seemingly the old Shiyo or Sharp-tail Grouse band which by 1845 appears to have merged into the True Oglalas." He doesn't give any reason for the interpretation, and I used to think this was just a guess, but now I know more about Hyde's correspondence with Scudder Mekeel, and I feel that Mekeel may have uncovered some detail which is back of this statement.
My feeling: is that the pairing possibly does represent the elusive Shiyo band. Remember how John Moore revealed the connections between the Shiyo and the Cheyenne Masikota band? And recall the translation of Masikota as something like 'to lie down with the legs flexed'. The interview conducted by Donald Collier with Eagle Elk in 1939 is a vital new source. He lists a number of family heads in the Oyuhpe band as of c. 1860 - in his boyhood. One is 'Spring His Legs', the son of Lone Bull. The name seems to echo the Masikota context. And we have clues as to what happened to the Shiyo band after it split up, I think in the early 1830s. Some went to the Oyuhpe. Some may have gone to the Kiyuksa, whence the recurrence of the Lone Bull name. Some certainly went to the Lower Brule, where the band name Shiyo persisted into the reservation era.
The third pairing, Crazy Bear and Bull Bear, surely represents the Kiyuksa band, just as Hyde theorises.
The final pairing, chief Ghost Boy and warrior Mad Soul (that's Nagi Gnaskinyan, Mad or Enraged Soul) is among the most interesting. The same pair of names crops up among the Oglalas returning from Canada in 1881, and then again in the 1890 Pine Ridge census where they are listed in a community-tiyoshpaye in the Wounded Knee Dist. called simply 'Ogalala'. In short, I think the 1825 pairing represents a significant transition in Oglala history when the Oyuhpe - one of the oldest Oglala bands,dating back to the early 18th c., was returning to rejoin the tribe after a lengthy spell among the Miniconjou. I suggest Ghost Boy was the chief of the True Oglala. Mad Soul, his head warrior, I think was an inmarried Oyuhpe. As "Crazy Ghost", his name appears in that Eagle Elk-Collier interview as an Oyuhpe, one of three sons of chief Charging Hawk. The latter I believe was born about 1775 and still alive in 1860. So I think Mad Soul's marriage into the True Oglala was a key connection in the process that by 1835 had brought the Oyuhpe back into the Oglala hoop.
Hope this makes sense and helps.
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Post by hreinn on May 27, 2013 7:55:03 GMT -5
Chief 1 Yes, "Red" in Red Standing Bull is convincing. Although a new information. "sha" in the end of the name, seems to be more than a phonetical mistake. To distinguish between two Standing Bulls ? Chief 2 It is not a perfect match ""a-long" sounds a bit like ablo", but the best we have at the moment. But "a-long" is only part of what was written. Can we read into the other parts of "He-a-long-ga", that is "he"/"he-a" and "ga" ? In the same nature as "sha" stands for red in the name of Chief 1. Chief 3 When mentioned, the misunderstanding of "Full" vs. "Fool" is understandable. This is the same as for Crazy Horse. Because in Hayden, the Lakota name of Crazy Horse ("ta-shunk'-a-wit'-ku") was translated as "Foolish Horse". Which we would write today as Thashunke Witko or Tĥašuŋke Witkó. The translation of "Witkó" as "Crazy" is more common in the literature than "Fool"/"Foolish". The "White" part in the names "White Bear", must have been a white man's explanation of the meaning of the name. Because the above mentioned Lakota names only include bear in general, i.e. Matȟó. In Lakota language there is a special word for a grizzly bear. Grizzly bear = matȟóȟota and black bear = matȟósapa. Chief 4 Yes, when mentioned, "wagshe" could sound like "hoksi" But again, there is one part of "Wa-na-re-wag-she-go" which is not counted for, that is "go". Wanagi Hoksila "go" ? This "go" could representate the same ending as "ga" in the writing of the name for chief 2. The difference only due to a phonetical mistake. Warrior 4 Good to see the correct Lakota name Nagi Gnashkinyan for Mad Soul.
Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on May 28, 2013 5:18:45 GMT -5
Standing Bull = Smoke ? It is tempting to assume that the signatory of the 1825 Treaty named Red Standing Bull (Chief 1), was the one who we usually recognize as Smoke (old Smoke/chief Smoke). That is not far reached. Because Smoke had the name Standing Bull early in his life according to Wendell Smoke [1]. We only have to shift the time frame for the name Standing Bull to let it fit. I suggest the name Standing Bull was given by his parents around the age of 20. But later in life he was given the name Smoke by his warrior society [1]. The earliest written source for the name Smoke is from January 1842 ("smok vilig") [2]. So sometime between 1825 and 1842, Standing Bull could have been given the name Smoke. Yes, Wendell Smoke said the name Standing Bull was given at Smoke's birth. Well when Smoke was born in 1774, he was named "Standing Bull" ( Wakan Lala/"Tatanka Nazin") after his paternal gandpa Standing Buffalo. In his youth, the Toklala Society gave him a chief's name; Smoke. In his latter years, he took the name of Slow Bull but the Smoke name stayed with him until his death in 1864. But names of children always changed. Children were given a name at birth by their parents. When ca. 4-6 years old, their parents gave them another name. Again between 10-14 years old. And again around 18-22 years old. Most often the "biggest" name was given around the age of 20 by the parents. And that name would most often follow the individual for the next 20-40 years. I would say that Standing Bull was such a "big" name. So not given at an early age, only to be abandon several years later. So I suggest the name Standing Bull was given by his parents, when Smoke was around 20 years old. We see from Wendell Smoke that the name Smoke was not given to him by his parents, but instead by his warrior society. Wendell's words could be understood as the name Smoke was given after he was a chief ("gave him a chief's name"). Which indicates it happened later than the age of ca. 20. Before taking the elderly name, it is almost certain that this individual had more than 2 names. That is the names: 1. given at birth 2. given when chief It is almost certain, that something was between there. And therefore the name Standing Bull would have been abandoned for another name. Smoke was born in 1774, according to Wendell Smoke. In 2013, the question is whether Smoke was given the name Standing Bull during 1774 or ca. 1794 ? Did he get the name Standing Bull in early years or early adult years ? After such a long time, that would only be a minor variation of the oral tradition of the Smoke's family. The suggestion that Standing Bull was also known as Smoke, would fit to the other part of the oral tradition. That Smoke was the head chief of Hunkpatila. This suggestion does not complicate matters, but instead simplifies matters. So when all is taken together, the 1825 signatory Standing Bull could have been Smoke. Hreinn References: 1. Wendell Smoke in reply # 65 on page 5 in the thread Chief Smoke and his family. amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=oglala1&action=display&thread=239&page=5 2. The David Adams Journals, Edited by Charles E. Hanson, Jr., The Museum of the Fur Trade (1994), page 15
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Post by hreinn on Jun 9, 2013 13:19:27 GMT -5
Chief 2 The name of the second Oglala chief in the 1825 Treaty was written as "He-a-long-ga" and translated as "Shoulder". Perhaps Shoulder was also known as White Blanket and even also White Swan, as discussed below. It is possible to divide the Lakota name in the 1825 Treaty (He-a-long-ga) into 3 parts: 1. He 2. alo 3. ga which could be the Lakota words: 1. há = skin or hide 2. abló = shoulder blade, as suggested by Carlo on May 26, 2013 3. ská = white Therefore the name "He-a-long-ga" could mean in full = White Hide On a Shoulder Variously given as: 1. White Blanket by Zebulon Pike in 1805 2. Shoulder by the translator during 1825 Treaty There is one part of the name given in the 1825 Treaty which is not accounted for. That is "ng" before "ga" in the end of the name (lo ng-ga). If we accept "ga" as "ska" (ská) which means white. And stretch us a bit and imagine that the writer was trying to write mağá when he wrote "ng". Mağá means swan (mağá is also a generic word for swans, geese and ducks). So this name could actually mean in full = White Swan Hide On a Shoulder. This could be White Swan who was a father to Iron Hatchet, Crazy Dog (aka. Mad Dog), Bull Bear and Self-Met (Iye itcila). One of White Swan's sons; Mad Dog (aka Crazy Dog) was an Oglala chief. In 1839 Nicolett noted that Oglalas were divided into 3 bands, one of which was Ku-Inyan whose leader was Mad Dog. All these 3 names: 1. Shoulder 2. White Blanket 3. White Swan are known names of Oglala chiefs or important men. What we thought was 3 different Oglala chiefs, was perhaps the same person ! How convenient ! If correct. Hreinn
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Post by hreinn on Jun 10, 2013 8:43:08 GMT -5
If Shoulder was also known as White Blanket and White Swan. Then another pairing of chiefs and warriors fits better to known genealogy.
It is better to pair them as: White Swan (chief 2) + Bull Bear (warrior 3) (father/"father" and son/"son") and Crazy Bear (chief 3) + Lone Bull (warrior 2)
Hreinn
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Post by lgarcia on Jun 10, 2013 11:16:33 GMT -5
hreinn: From your posts you are an expert in the Lakota language. I wish to discuss the word Wanagi and nagi (I can't seem to find "symbols" so I can use the correct letters). I am not a Dakota speaker but live here on the Spirit Lake Reservation (Ft. Totten, ND). The tribe has elected to use Rigg's spelling system. Here the term Nagi is a dead soul, hense the Wanagi becomes a ghost. Here also a live spirit or soul is sicun. The book "Lakota Beliefs" discusses the use of this term. This is why a White person is called Wasicun. I know of tribal members think the word for Whiteman is wasin-icu = Takes the fat. Have a great day, Louie
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