Post by kingsleybray on Nov 24, 2014 16:05:18 GMT -5
Sitting Bear's tiyoshpaye, led later by his son American Horse, was connected with the Southern Oglala in the 1830s and 40s. There is a marked shift in the geographic emphasis of entries in American Horse's winter count from 1859-60. Beginning that year it consistently records events in the Northern Oglala hunting grounds until the reservation period.
I think Sitting Bear and his tiyoshpaye joined Bull Bear's people at Ft Laramie in 1835 and remained with them til 1859, then went back north.
The Black Hawk family must be closely related to the Calfskin Robe family. That would be a neat solution to make Black Hawk a son of Slow Bear I. For those unfamiliar with the arcana at issue, Slow Bear I and Calfskin Robe were cousins, probably born in the frame 1775-1800, and belonged to founding families of the Shkokpa band. That would be very neat, haha, if Black Hawk were a son of Slow Bear I. Thanks for drawing the possibility to my attention.
I don't know for sure about the Tobacco problem. I want to say No it's not possible, Oyuhpe is Oyuhpe and can't be Red Water. But I don't know.
The demographic fact of the generation 1845-70 for the Southern Oglala is one of net population loss - drain to the Northern Oglalas, and elsewhere. In drawing up a listing for say 1865 what seems clear is a dramatic decline in Red Water. Many must have joined other Kiyuksa sub-bands, but some certainly rejoined their parent tribal division the Sans Arcs in 1859. Shkokpa grew in numbers, following an able war leader and hunt organizer, Pawnee Killer (son of Calfskin Robe).
Post by kingsleybray on Nov 24, 2014 16:49:04 GMT -5
Le Borgne was one of the oldest leaders among the Oglala in 1846 - over 80 years old. He was living with the Bull Bear tiyoshpaye in Fast Whirlwind's camp in August 1846 - suggestive that he had retired from active chieftainship and was living with his nearest relatives. Bull Bear the elder was Le Borgne's 'brother' so the connections btw these bands was deep and old.
Iwayusota - there certainly was at least one man with this name. As a band name, Used Up by Begging, I suspect it reflects a period of political upheaval in the mid-18th c. when one Oglala band favoured alliance with the French when others did not.
Continuities from 1835 to 1846: Fast Whirlwind from True Oglala-Hunkpatila, a Shirt Wearer seated in c. 1824.
I am curious how you arrived at a circa. 1824 date for Fast Whirlwind becoming a shirt wearer. His name does not appear on the 1825 Atkinson treaty. Charles Tackett in 1907 told Meany that this was "supposed to be 100 years ago" but this seems too early. William Iron Crow noted that Fast Whirlwind "was the first chief of the Oglala proper," but then goes on to confuse him with Conquering Bear killed in 1854. I would propose that he became an active leader some time in the 1830s.
These are the references that I am aware of about Fast Whirlwind:
1832 -- George Hyde (Red Cloud's Folk, p. 41) notes that George Catlin mentioned Whirlwind during his 1832 expedition, but for the life of me, I cannot find the reference! I assume it is in Catlin's Letters and Notes but have had no luck in locating the citation.
1845 -- The son of Whirlwind killed by a Shoshone war party on the Laramie Plains. Fearing retaliation, the Shoshone sent tobacco and the scalp back to Fort Laramie with "Vaskiss" (probably Pierre Louis Vasquez who was a partner with Jim Bridger at Fort Bridger trading with the eastern Shoshone).
1846 -- Francis Parkman stayed in the village of Whirlwind who was preparing a retaliatory raid against the Shoshone.
1850 -- Whirlwind "Wamine ma du sah" (note Dakota dialect) recorded by Culbertson as head of the "Ogallah band" (=True Oglala)
1851 -- possibly at Horse Creek Treaty? There is a later Fast Whirlwind Wamniomni luzahan(1851-1935) who may be a son of this chief. The younger Fast Whirlwind served as an Indian scout at the Red Cloud Agency in 1877-78 and at Pine Ridge during the Ghost Dance troubles; he is listed in Pine Ridge Agency census for 1890 as a member of the Makaha band. What is interesting is that in his pension file, Fast Whirlwind said that he was born in the fall of 1851 at the mouth of Horse Creek. If he is a son, that puts the family there at the time of the treaty. Whirlwind's name however does not appear on the 1851 list.
1866 -- A Loafer named Whirlwind was among the runners sent out for the 1866 treaty negotiations at Fort Laramie. Any relation?
It is interesting to note that the contemporary accounts refer to this individual as "Whirlwind" while later Lakota informants (Short Bull, Charles Tackett, Iron Crow) all refer to him as Fast Whirlwind.
Post by kingsleybray on Nov 25, 2014 4:29:15 GMT -5
Like you I have combed Catlin for the reference to Whirlwind, but I think we have to conclude that this is a case of when Uncle George, like Homer, nodded.
The first contemporary record I have found is from David Adams' journal entry for November 27, 1841 (p. 21 of Charles Hanson, ed., THE DAVID ADAMS JOURNALS), when he recounts how the Oglala chiefs Le Borgne, Bull Bear, Whirlwind, and Lone Man harangued the village on Chugwater creek to prevent any looting of traders.
The 1843 Fremont expedition met Oglalas btw Lodgepole and Horse creeks on August 2, according to diarist Theodore Talbot - see Charles H. Carey, ed., THE JOURNALS OF THEODORE TALBOT, 1843 AND 1849-52 (Portland, Oregon, 1931), p. 32 f. He calls them " 'Sioux' of the '(Oglalah) Spotted eyes' band." They met "their two principal chiefs 'Tourbillon' or the 'Whirlwind' a very great soldier, and 'Le Borgne' (or as he is more commonly called 'Old Burns'), so called from his having lost one eye together with his brother, another great warrior, by name 'Wriggle Mouth'".
Fast Whirlwind or plain Whirlwind seems to remain prominent past 1850 (Culbertson), then Bad Wound seems to become the ranking Southern Oglala spokesman. However FW remained alive and of some status: the Lakota band list (not broken down by tribal division but covering all Tetons) presented by F. V. Hayden and dating from 1857-58 (CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE ETHNOGRAPHY AND PHILOLOGY etc. p. 375) names Fast Whirlwind as the chief of the (wait for it) Payabya band.
In Ft Laramie Letters Received there is a tally of provisions issued to Indians in Sept. 1866, including "Whirl Wind". This presumably is the same man as the 1865-66 delegate. Noted serving as a scout for fort patrols at the same time is Three Bears, so I think there is a Southern Oglala connection here.
Finally, in Brian Jones' article on 'John Richard Jr and the Killing at Ft Fetterman', in ANNALS OF WYOMING, he cites a petition sent from Whetstone Agency after Richard's flight to Powder river, pleading for clemency. It was signed by a number of headmen in Loafer camp, including Whirlwind. This is the last possible ref. I can find to Fast Whirlwind.
My reasoning on the dating of the Shirt Wearer investiture. Tackett and High Horse told Meany in 1907 that four Oglalas - Leans, White Bull, Fast Whirlwind and Makes Smoke - were made Shirt Wearers about 100 years earlier. As you say 1807 would be too early, but the investiture has to precede a second one which Tackett and High Horse also refer. They named Big Crow, Mad Dog, Bull Bear, and Old Man Afraid of His Horse as the second cohort of Oglala Shirt Wearers. Since mad Dog and Bull Bear were killed in 1841, this presumably dates to the 1830s (another control: Old Man Afraid was born c. 1808). In the talk I gave to Richard iron Cloud's students at Piya Wiconi two weeks ago I interpreted this ceremony to be connected to the 1835 Sun Dance near Ft Laramie. Circling back to the first Shirt Wearers' ceremony - it must significantly precede c. 1835 and postdate 1807 by some margin. Because other investiture events seem connected to US diplomacy I offer the possibility of 1824. After the 1823 Leavenworth expedition debacle, and the closure of Missouri Fur Co. trading operations 1823-24, there was a crisis in Lakota-American relations (from which Hunkpapa-Saone relations never really recovered). I interpret the first Oglala Shirt Wearers as being acclaimed by the chief's council and tasked with advising whether the council should approve and sign the new Atkinson treaty.
I had forgotten about the mention of Whirlwind in the Adams' journal. In case folks do not have Charles Hanson's book The David Adams Journals (1994), here is the journal entry that Kingsley mentioned. I have corrected the spelling and grammar to make it a little easier to read. John Sibille and his small party had departed Fort Platte on the Laramie River on Nov. 18, traveling down to the Chugwater to trade with the Oglala. In this entry of Adams’ diary, Sibille has just returned to Fort Platte and relates the story of their experience:
Saturday, November 27, 1841 – This morning the sun rose most brilliant and clear but there was a monstrous heavy frost fell which made the forenoon cool until 10 o’clock. Then it began to get worse and thaw. Today Mr. Aroca [LaRoque?] and myself finished one door and had monstrous hard work to get it together on account that our puncheons were twisting and winding.
This afternoon Mr. Sibille and the 2 boys came in with the cart and wagon from the Oglala village. They brought in 28 robes and 1 horse and their wagon and cart loaded down with meat and 1 white bear skin. And Mr. Sibille brought with him a bride. She is a better looking piece then the first one that ran away from him, though I don’t know how long this one will stay.
Mr. Sibille thought Mr. Bissonette tried his best to have our kegs broke by the Indians. There was one or two Indians [who] went to break them but they found themselves mistaken. They found that most of the biggest braves [who] wanted to break the kegs was one of the soldiers of Bissonette. His name is The Left Hand, but there was a brave by the name of Smoke that was on the side of Mr. Sibille.
He (The Smoke) went up to The Left Hand and said to him: “Since when [do] you count yourself so brave that you can enter to break the kegs of a white man?” The Smoke spoke to him and said “Give me the sword that you have in your hand,” which he did without a word. When The Smoke had the sword, he asked him, “[Why did they] give you this sword, my friend?” The Left Hand said that it was the shits. “So, my friend, they gave you this sword to kill white people and break their kegs.” Then The Smoke handed him back his sword and said to The Left Hand: “If I was to do right, I would kill you with the sword that you said the white gave you. But, my friend, I take pity on you because you are a fool. Now, my friend, you have got your sword and there are the kegs of that little white man. So go and break them, if you count yourself a brave or a man. If you do, your men have to die.” But the Left Hand didn’t break the kegs but was glad to sneak off as a dog with his tail between his legs and monstrous glad that he got off so well with his life.
Then the chief of the Oglalas, LeBorne, and the Bull Bear and the Whirlwind and The Man Alone walked through the village and harangued and told the Sioux that it there were any of them that wanted to kill any white man or break their barrels, that it was good that they should do it now. But that they should kill them first and then kill the white man and break their barrels. “But I tell you all the Sioux, the first that hurts a white man or breaks any of their barrels will have to die or run away and hide himself so that he can’t be found.”
Adams again mentions Whirlwind four years later, under the date Feb. 6, 1845:
Denoyer[?] has got in from the Cheyennes. He brought in 10 packs of robes. He states that the Sioux up there have split, some have gone to the Cheyennes [while] old LeBorne, The Bad Wound and The Whirlwind have gone over to Horse Creek with their bands. The three number about 80 lodges. Mr. Reddick came in from the Sioux that gone over to Horse Creek. He got in at 9 o’clock at night. He came on express. He states the same that Denoyer does.
Post by kingsleybray on Nov 25, 2014 8:31:23 GMT -5
Thanks for that, Ephriam. That February 6, 1845 entry is important because it shows Bad Wound moving away with the principal leaders within the Kiyuksa-Red Water/Southern Oglala. He had been a principal brave within the Hunkpatila-True Oglala band, acting as 'soldier' for David Adams and the Ft Platte traders. That band ranged north from the North Platte valley. Because of political differences he then moves south and joins the Southern Oglala bands ranging btw the North and South Platte rivers - with whom he and his family remain aligned into the reservation era.
Post by kingsleybray on Nov 25, 2014 8:57:44 GMT -5
I meant to say that I wondered whether the confusion in the Iron Crow-Meany interview, conflating Fast Whirlwind and Scattering Bear, was not faulty interpretation, or mishearing by Meany, or else Meany writing up his notes and missing out a line.
I didn't mention the other and the main reason behind the suggestion that Iron Hatchet and Old Man Afraid of His Horse was the same man. That is, both have been said to have established Payabya. Lawrence Bull Bear said in 1931 that Iron Hatchet founded Payabya. Wendell Smoke wrote in 2011 that Old Man Afraid of His Horse founded Payabya.
Hello. Thank you all for your answers. Before proceeding further, I still have some questions. Usually they say that the epidemic has hit the 1849 Skokpa. But OGLALA KIYUKSA BAND COMPOSITION, 1846 Skokpa not look large group. Or joined them at that time, people from other groups, such as the same Shiyo? I read somewhere that the Two Faces and Blakfoot who hanged at Fort Laramie in 1865, was just one of Shiyo.
In addition, in the first post of this topic group Iwayusota, Used Up by Begging (leads to Walks Underground, Black Bear families) referred to as a part of True Oglala. Walks Underground assassinated in 1868. What is known about him and his family, as well as about the Black Bear?
Hello Kingsley, thanks for the extensive information. In your "Oglala Tribal Structure, Sun Dance 1835" as part of Oyuhpe mentioned Susu-ikitchu. According to the above you in the thread about the group Miniconjou among Oyuhpe no such band. Or this group was not formed from Miniconjou -Oyuhpe? As part of Susu-ikitchu you bring "Used Up By the Mouth". It is not connected with the group Iwayusota, Used Up by Begging (leads to Walks Underground, Black Bear families) from your "The Oglala Tribe in generation 1800-1825."? Just Iwayusota band did not present a "Oglala Tribal Structure, Sun Dance 1835", but then appears in the "OGLALA KIYUKSA BAND COMPOSITION, 1846.", a part of TRUE OGLALA Bad Wound
Post by kingsleybray on Dec 1, 2014 4:08:21 GMT -5
hreinn, there's no way to prove that Iron Hatchet was/or was not another name for Old Man Afraid of His Horse. This stuff is all about balancing probabilities. To me one plain fact is that in 1835 we have over 2000 Oglala people, about 500 of them adult males perhaps. We know the names of only a few! So I tend not to assume (unless we have good evidence for it) that Individual A = Individual B.
The other way to think about is that Lawrence Bull Bear emphasises his own family's fundamental role in tribal politics and organization. Human nature. Payabya, Lawrence makes clear, was created out of the marriages that Iron Hatchet made. It makes sense to me that we should be thinking about marriages linking the Kiyaksa-Kuhinyan band with the Hunkpatila-True Oglala band. Hence the connections created btw. Iron Hatchet and the Man Afraid of His Horse family. Remember in the same short interview, Lawrence goes on to mention the marriage of Bull Bear's granddaughter to Young Man Afraid of His Horse. It would seem odd to refer to Young Man by his 'regular' name but to Old Man by an otherwise obscure nickname. And also we do know that Old Man Afraid's nickname was Kapozhe'la (lightweight). And in any case if Old Man Afraid was a brother of Bull Bear, his son could not have married a granddaughter of Bull Bear's - it would have been an incestuous relationship.
grigoryiv, it may be to over-simplify but yes: note how the Shiyo and Red Water bands, prominent among the Oglala in the first half of the 19th c., both disappear as named entities. But a 'new' prominent band emerges - the Spleen band (Tapishlecha; also called Skokpa). I think personnel from the old bands must have featured strongly in the makeup of the new one. A particular extended family assumes an influential role, and their name gets applied to the whole entity.
Thanks Kingsley. As I understand it, at the 1846 True Oglala consist only of Yellow Eagle band? Or as specified by you in "As a tribal baseline during winter 1867-68" this band is divided into Yellow Thunder tiyoshpaye and Refuse to Move tiyoshpaye?
Bad Face has become a separate entity including Smoke, Red Cloud, Brave Bear and Black Stone family. At this time Shikshichela already attached to Bad Face? Or will it be later?
Payabya become the fourth group of sub-band hunkpatila.
Approximately get the following picture: HUNKPATILA-TRUE OGLALA A.True Oglala 1. Yellow Thunder Iglakatekhila, Refuse to Move Camp B.Ite Sica, Плохие Лица 2. Brave Bear 3. Smoke 4. Red Cloud Lone Man family 5. Black Rock Cankahuhan, Sore Backs C.Hunkpatila-Payabya 6. Standing Bull III Mahpia Hanhepi, Night Cloud 7. Yellow Eagle Tishayaote, Red Lodge 8. Black Elk, Makes the Song Kapozhela, Lightweight 9. Man-Afraid-His-Horse Iron Hatchet family (Payabya) 10. Shell Man (from Shiyo) (Payabya) 11. Standing Bull II Family (Payabya)