I thought that Oyuhpe Oglala Lakota always had their name/kept their name, from their parent group among Oyuhpe Yankton Dakota. Based on Nicollet's list of band names from 1839. Where we had the name Oyuhpe among both the Lakota and Dakota (i.e. Oglala and Yankton, respectively).
But from Collier's field notes, based on an interview with Eagle Elk. It can be deduced that the name Oyuhpe came later on. Collier field notes, page 1: "Inf. belonged to the Oyo'xpe camp (translation ?). This name was given to the camp at the time they aquired the Brave Heart dance from the Yankton".
That could mean that the group perhaps had another name (or even no name) before receiving the Oyuhpe name. Do we have sources/references to another and older name of the Oyuhpe ? or a "no-name" period of the Oyuhpe ?
Except the memory or the original knowledge of Eagle Elk was mixed up, or Collier misunderstood Eagle Elk. From that point of view, yes Oyuhpe got their name from Yanktons as repeated after Eagle Elk. Because that was the name of their parent group, which they always kept. But not receiving their Oyuhpe name through a special ceremony held by the Yankton Dakotas. But yes, Eagle Elk was perhaps refering to a meeting of the alliance of Masikota Cheyenne + Oyuhpe Oglala Lakota, with the parent group Oyuhpe Yankton Dakotas.
Another twist of Collier's field notes, following interview with Eagle Elk. Collier: "Inf. belonged to the Oyo'xpe camp (translation ?). This name was given to the camp at the time they aquired the Brave Heart dance from the Yankton".
I wonder if the Strong Heart society (not the dance), originated among the Cheyennes. Based on what Alex Charging Crow wrote in his autobiography. Where he said the "bandeauleir hitch with stake" by the Strong Hearts originated among the Cheyennes. I am not sure if he is refering to the whole performance of the Strong Hearts members in a battle, or just refering to a fine detail of the tying of the members to a stake. Or if he is refering to the origin of the Strong Heart society battle custom in general.
Here are 3 quotes from Alex Charging Crow about the Strong Heart Society: "Strong Heart Organization:-- My grandfather, Palani, explanation about this organization was that at the time when he was a young man this organization was already in existence. So he said that he does not know the origin of the force when and who started it." [page 88] "The reason why they call this Strong Heart is a member is required to dismount or if he is on foot to take off the bandeauleir which he wears over his shoulder and with the hitch and stake on it he must stake it on the ground an fight the coming foe or attack from this position." [page 88] "This bandeauleir hitch with stake by the Strong Hearts was first introduced to the Oglala by the Cheyenne tribe. The Cheyennes had this first and after sometime they passed it on to the Sioux through a cerimonial [cremonial] gathering." [page 90]
If the Strong Heart society originated among the Cheyennes. Where the Masikota Cheyenne introduced it to their Oyuhpe Lakota allies. Then it would be an example of Cheyenne influence upon Lakota. And therefore the memory of Eagle Elk about a ceremony where Oyuhpe aquired the Strong Heart society dance when visiting Yankton Dakotas. Where the Yankton Dakotas gave a new dance to the new alliance of Masikota Cheyenne and Oyuhpe Oglala Lakota.
Last Edit: Sept 12, 2014 19:16:34 GMT -5 by hreinn
from Hyde's "Life of George Bent", University of Oklahoma Press, paperback edition 1979, page 13: "Our old people say that these Moiseyus were Sioux Indians and that for many years they kept moving back and forth, sometimes living with the Cheyennes on the Missouri and then returning again to their old home."
"were Sioux" seems to mean that Moiseyus spoke a Siouan language. I wonder if the Moiseyus were a fragment of the Dhegihan group ? Just as the better known Osages and Poncas.
If we take one step further the idea that Moiseyus were Shiyo. Then we would have still another example of an alliance between Lakotas and a fragment of the Dhegihan group. As discussed in the thread Calico, in the Oglala board. amertribes.proboards.com/thread/2033/calico
In "The Cheyenne Nation" by John Moore (1987) we can find some informations on the Cheyenne bands and he was doing Research on the early bands and bandnames. In his chapter of "Lakota Origins" for Cheyenne bands he writes, when he speaks of Teton origins for the Eater (Omisis, Wotapio) and Masikota bands, that does not mean that these Groups were originally Teton, culturally or linguistically but resident and intermarried with Lakotas (also Dakotas earlier I think to understand). He links the Masikota band with the Sheo band of Oglala-Lakota, since the Maskikota appear in the Cheyenne Nation circle at the time when the Sheo disappeard among the Teton. Moore gives also other evidences on linguistic ground, as well as working with Cheyenne informants (descendants of the band in OK) and studying the recordings of Lewis & Clark, Dorsey, Riggs, more recent censuses etc. Moore further suggested to look at Teton affilitations for the Moiseos (Fox or Blue Horse band). It is known that the Siouan names "Wotapio" and "Ou de baton" for the Eater band goes back to the French maps recordings of 1680. Well known half Cheyenne George Bent gave informations that the band descended from Cheyennes who had intermarried with the "Moiseyev" band of Tetons, which was a Group last seen around 1814. In Cheyenne the Name Moiseyev means Flint People, but on the other hand, there seems to have been not any Lakota band by that Name. Lewis & Clark gave no hint on any band called Flint People, Moiseo (or Monsoni as they were also called). Neverthless, a number of Cheyenne informants claimed that the Eaters began with Siouan affiliations and intermarriage with Siouan, there´s no reason to deny that. Moore further writes, that one consequence of Sweet Medicine´s charter to form the Cheyenne Nation was that the Eater BANDS became identified politically with the other Cheyennes instead with the Tetons. Seemingly this was already the case by the time of Carver in 1766. (Or maybe was about to take place ? - my thoughts). Carver reportet that while the "Shians" were still part of the Dakota-Alliance, the "Shianese, the Choungousceton, and the Waddapawjestin" (this last being the parent band of the Wotapios proper, the Omisis and the other Eater bands), lived farther out on the Plains and where not part of the alliance. (John Moore, The Cheyenne Nation, 1987, p. 1178 - 120)
At the beginning of this thread I posted a baseline Oglala tribal structure for c. 1804 (time of first Oglala contact with USA), listing bands, sub-bands, leading families and so on. Here is a second proposed baseline, set at 1835, the year the Oglala tribe consolidated in the North Platte valley and southeast Wyoming, having moved down from the Black Hills to trade at the new post Fort Laramie (see the Bull Bear and his family thread). They held a Sun Dance near the post, elevating a new cohort of Shirt Wearers and re-arranging the tribal circle after the final dissolution of the old Shiyo band, and the assimilation of many Miniconjou-Saone visitors into the re-chartered Oyuhpe band. My proposal looks like this:
Oglala Tribal Structure, Sun Dance 1835
Approximately 2000 people, 275 lodges. Four major bands (oshpaye) – Kuhinyan, Hunkpatila-True Oglala, Payabya, Oyuhpe. Reconstructed composition of bands, with 33 leading families/headmen comprising chiefs’ council: KUHINYAN (southwest quadrant of tribal circle, 'chief place'). A. Kiyaksa • Bull Bear • Mad Dog • Self-Met • Two Crows tiyoshpaye B. Kuhinyan • Little Bull • Paints His Chin Red • Lone Man C. Other • Calfskin Robe (Shkokpa) • Stabber (Wacheunpa) • Standing Bull II (from True Oglala) HUNKPATILA-TRUE OGLALA (southeast quadrant of tribal circle, 'home horn'). D. True Oglala • Smoke (Bad Face) • Yellow Thunder (Refuse to Move Camp)
E. Tashnahecha • Bad Wound II • No Water • Black Rock (Sore Backs)
F. Hunkpatila • Standing Bull III • Yellow Eagle • Black Elk, Makes the Song
PAYABYA (northeast quadrant of tribal circle, 'north horn') G. (from Kuhinyan) • Man Afraid of His Horse • Iron Hatchet H. (from Hunkpatila-True Oglala) • Fast Whirlwind (Bad Face) • Sitting Bear (Bear “clan”, according to descendant Joe American Horse) I. (from Shiyo) • Shell Man • White Bull
OYUHPE (northwest quadrant of tribal circle, equivalent to space offered honoured visitor within a tipi). J. Oyuhpe-hcka • Tobacco • White Earrings • Left-Handed Oyuhpe . Enter A Virgin K. Susu-ikitchu • Charging Hawk • Eats Buffalo Meat (Kills Bear) • Used Up By the Mouth L. Other • Ghost Boy (from Hunkpatila-True Oglala) • Bear Stands Up (from Shiyo)
Good day. I am very interested in your distribution of family clusters (tiyospaye). However, after the assassination of Bull Bear began the process of reorganization of the Oglala the circle was interrupted. At the same time, in 1840, 30 lodges joined the Red Water Kiyuksa. By the logic of this new group of three tiyospaye. Subsequently, in 1845, the majority of the Red Water join Sans Arc. I'm trying to do by your example the distribution of 1840-1845 before and after the murder of Bull Bear. There are a number of questions on a number of the families you in the distribution of 1835.
Not well understood by the families of the brothers Bull Bear. For example, the Mad Dog was the son of Red Cloud, who was killed in 1837 Pawnee. Who was the follower of the leader, or the family cut short? In Self-Met was the eldest son of Thompson Brown Bull, but as I understand the family is headed Spotted Eagle, another son of Self-Met. Iron Hatchet, formed Payabya. But then mentions only Man Afraid of His Horse. Iron Hatchet himself or his sons, especially nowhere mentioned. Standing Bull II (from True Oglala). He was also killed during the assassination of Bull Bear. Some of his sons stayed with Kiyuksa or they all returned to Standing Bull III, who stayed with True Oglala? Hyde "The people of Red Cloud" writes that after Bull Bear principal chief Kiyuksa becomes Whirlwind. In 1844, his son Male Crow was killed Shoshoni. And it became known tiyospaye Orphans. To which the family belonged Male Crow and his father Whirlwind?
Post by kingsleybray on Nov 23, 2014 17:08:44 GMT -5
Good questions, grigoryev, it may take me more than one message to reply in full.
Mad Dog, Shunka Gnashkiyan, was a brother of Bull Bear. From the Edmond S. Meany interview with Charley Tackett and Paul High Horse, we now know that the two brothers were made Shirt Wearers (along with Big Crow [Red Water tiyoshpaye] and Old Man Afraid of His Horse) - I believe in the 1835 Oglala Sun Dance near Fort Laramie. This was the subject of my presentation at Oglala Lakota College - Piya Wiconi, two weeks ago.
My hunch is that the Red Cloud killed by the Pawnees in 1837 was the son of Mad Dog. This Red Cloud, born c. 1812, was a 'cousin' to the famous Red Cloud.
Iron Hatchet, another brother of Bull Bear, was said by Lawrence Bull Bear in 1931 to have been the founder of the Payabya. Lawrence was emphasising his own family's input, only naturally - but the Payabya must have been founded out of marriages linking the Kiyaksa-Kuhinyan band (Bull Bear's people) with the Hunkpatila-True Oglala band. I feel confident that this new band was formed in 1835 also. It gave Bull Bear and his relatives a commanding place in the tribal circle, at the horns or the head of the circle. The Kuhinyan band occupied the chief place at the rear of the circle, so the extended Bull Bear family now occupied a commanding position in tribal structure. This all reflects their winning of new hunting grounds and trade links in the North Platte valley - climaxed by the 1834 establishment of Ft Laramie, a large trading post dedicated to the Oglala trade.
Although I've spoken to modern family descendants I have not been able to add anything substantial to our data on Iron Hatchet.
The Standing Bull dynasty: the later Standing Bulls, III and IV, seem consistently linked with the Northern Oglalas. However, Ephriam's newly found reference, to Standing Bull III being a key war leader in the Pawnee war in 1842-43, may suggest that he was associated with the Southern division in the late 1830s-early 40s. But the evidence as it stands is too vague to be definite.
The Fast Whirlwind evidence is one area where I diverge from George Hyde. Grant Short Bull told Mekeel in 1931 that Fast Whirlwind was originally a Bad Face. Bad Face and True Oglala are synonymous or else linked, 'nested' sub-bands. Iron Crow told Meany that Fast Whirlwind was a True Oglala. And Culbertson's 1850 tabulation equates Fast Whirlwind with the True Oglala. So I'm confident that that was his home, or natal band. Of course in 1842 he aligns with the Kiyaksa-Kuhinyan after the killing of Bull Bear, and is the senior chief within the maximal band through much of the 40s. Remember he was made a Shirt Wearer with the earlier intake, I think of 1824. Part of the True Oglala aligned with the northern division, the Smoke People; part with the Southern or Bear People. Fast Whirlwind, Three Bears, Bad Wound - these are all True Oglala-derived headmen who (following marriage and hunka links) align with the Bear People. And there would be fluid movement back and forth, the two divisions were not hermetically sealed.
I think Hyde was mistaken in making Male Crow the son of Fast Whirlwind. The latter had a prominent son killed in 1845, as Parkman learned. The winter count match I propose is not Male Crow but White Bull - an hereditary name going back to the Oglala-Arikara sojourn of the 1760s. I cant say for sure but my hunch would be that this White Bull inherited it from his mother's side, i.e White Bull II was his uncle, lekshi. In other words one of Fast Whirlwind's wives was from the White Bull family - and again, my hunch is that that family was one of the main tiwahe within the Shiyo band that dispersed during the 1830s.
What is the source(s) for a killing by Pawnees in 1837 of a Lakota person named Red Cloud ?
Could the Red Cloud killed in 1837 by the Pawnees, have been the older brother of the famous Red Cloud who also had the name Red Cloud ? Because the famous Red Cloud took/got the Red Cloud name from his older brother, when the older one was killed . The brothers got the Red Cloud name from their father [1, 2], who later took the name Lone Man . Before the famous Red Cloud got/took that name, he was named Two Arrows .
If Red Cloud killed in 1837 was the older brother of the famous Red Cloud. Then the famous Red Cloud would have been 15-16 years old in 1837 when he got the name Red Cloud.
From the text in Red Cloud's Autobiography , it seems that Red Cloud had already got the Red Cloud name in 1841, when he was 19-20 years old. Based on a quote to what Trunk said in 1841 : "When the Koyas reached the Bad Face village, they met several Indians, one of whom happened to be the father of the young man who had stolen the Koya girl. Being under the influence of liquor they shot him. About this time the voice of Trunk was heard hallooing as he approached the place, "Are you going to lay there and be killed ? Where are all the young men ? Where is Red Cloud ? Red Cloud, are you going to disgrace your father's name ?" This harangue and the unexpected shot had raised the Bad Faces, and many of the young men rushed out to meet the insolent intruders, Red Cloud among them. They opened fire on the Koyas at once, and one of the shots struck Chief Bull Bear in the leg and brought him to the ground in a sitting position. Red Cloud rushing toward him shot him through the head, exclaiming as he did so, "You are the cause of this." "
References: 1. Collier's field notes based on an interview with Alex Charging Crow. 2. Paul (editor): "Autobiography of Red Cloud" 3. Hyde: "Red Cloud's Folk"
Actually, it would be very convenient if Iron Hatchet and Old Man Afraid of His Horses was the same person. It would for example: 1. explain the Southern Oglala ties of Old Man Afraid of His Horses 2. shed a new light on the connection between Old Man Afraid and Smoke. 3. shed a new light on the connection between Old Man Afraid to White Swan and Stone Knife 4. add a new detail of the relationship between Hunkpatilla - Payabya - Kiyuksa
Post by kingsleybray on Nov 24, 2014 9:45:29 GMT -5
Here is my take on the makeup of the Kuhinyan-Kiyuksa band in 1846. We can take George Hyde's remarks as a jumping-off point. After the killing of Bull Bear in 1841, the "True Oglalas, Red Water's band, and some others went along with the Kiyuksas" (RED CLOUD'S FOLK, p. 55); and "the tribe now split up, the Kiyuksa, True Oglala, and some minor groups moving south of the Platte" (RED CLOUD'S FOLK, p. 312).
We can be more specific about Hyde's "some others/ some minor groups". They comprised the Wacheunpa (Roaster) band, focussed round the Stabber family; the Shkokpa band, focussed on Black Hawk (an akichita in period 1835-50), and the core of the later Spleen band; and the remnant of the old Kuhinyan band.
hreinn, I need to come to your points in another message. grigoryev, what would be your take on the band breakdown after 1841? The more ideas, the more we can refine the story
OGLALA KIYUKSA BAND COMPOSITION, 1846.
150 lodges @ 7.25 people:lodge = 1085 people, equivalent to approximately 15-20 tiyoshpaye. In late summer 1846, according to Francis Parkman's observations, they were grouped into three major camps, viz. 1. Fast Whirlwind, 40 lodges 2. Bad Wound, 40 lodges 3. Red Water, 70 lodges.
This would be my reconstructed breakdown:
A. Fast Whirlwind, 40 lodges True Oglala • Fast Whirlwind Kiyaksa • Bull Bear the younger • Two Crows tiyoshpaye • Self-Met Wacheunpa • Stabber
B. Bad Wound, 40 lodges True Oglala: • Bad Wound • No Water • Sitting Bear • Iwayusota
C. Red Water, 70 lodges Red Water proper: • Red Water and sons • Tobacco • The Bear • Tall Bull Kuhinyan: • Tall Bear • Little Dog Shkokpa: • Black Hawk • White Bull’s sons?
Southern Oglalas A. Kiyaksa. Head chief Fast Whirlwind 40 lodges 1. Bull Bear 2-Little Wound Bull Bear family Mad Dog family 2. Self-Met His son Spotted Eagle 3. tiyoshpaye Two Crows - his brother Poor Elk, Broken Arm, Lone Bull I 4. Stabber Wacheunpa –meat roaster 5. Fast Whirlwind True Oglala
B. Red Water, 70 lodges 6. Red Water Minisala Red Water band. His son Big Crow Joined Sans-Arc during 1850s 7. Le Borne, Ishtakpe Minisala after 1845 joined Sans-Arc 8. 9. Kuhinyan 10. Tall Bear Little Bull family 11. Little Dog Big Brain Spotted Horse No Body tiyoshpaye Paint-his-Chin-Red Shkokpa, later Tapishlecha, spleen 12. Pawnee Killer Shkokpa. Calfskin Robe family (his sons, Running Enemy, Long Bear and PK) 13. Black Hawk, chief 1851-74 Spleen band Tapishlecha 14. Two Face & Blackfoot Kettle with legs band Chehuhaton
C. Tashnahecha Bad Wound, 40 lodges Joined Kiyuksa 1845 15. Bad Wound II 16. No Water Hoka Yuta, Badger Eaters band. After 1851, sons No Water return to True Oglala 17. Black Warbonnet family 18. Standing Cloud family D. Other 19. Standing Bull II family (True Oglala, Oglalacha) Return to True Oglala?
HUNKPATILA-ИСТИННЫЕ Оглала (southeast quadrant of tribal circle, 'home horn') E. Истинные Оглала 20. Yellow Thunder Iglakatekhila, Refuse to Move Camp 21. Three Bears Mato "clan". Sitting Bear family
F. Ite Sica, Плохие Лица 22. Brave Bear Ite Sica. 23. Smoke Later part family split off and formed Waglukhe 24. Red Cloud Lone Man family 25. Black Rock Cankahuhan, Sore Backs
G. Hunkpatila 26. Standing Bull III Mahpia Hanhepi, Night Cloud 27. Yellow Eagle Tishayaote, Red Lodge 28. Black Elk, Makes the Song Kapozhela, Lightweight
H. Payabya 29. Человек-Боящийся-Своих-Лошадей 30. Iron Hatchet family 31. Shell Man (from Shiyo) 32. White Bull (from Shiyo) there or kiyaksa?
OYUHPE (northwest quadrant of tribal circle, equivalent to space offered honoured visitor within a tipi) I. Oyuhpe-hcka 33. Tobacco 34. White Earrings 35. Left-Handed Oyuhpe 36. Enter A Virgin 37. Bear Stands Up (from Shiyo) Shoulder family?
J. Susu-ikitchu 38. Charging Hawk 39. Eats Buffalo Meat - Kills Bear 40. Used Up By the Mouth Iwayusota?
K. Makaicu 41. Red Dog
L. Wakan 42. Trembler/Shaker/Afraid of Holy? Or Kiyela Inyanke, Runs Near Lone Elk, No Braids, and Big Turnip
M. Other 43. Ghost Boy (from Hunkpatila-True Oglala)