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Post by kingsleybray on Jun 10, 2013 15:43:24 GMT -5
hreinn wrote: "It would be interesting if an estimate is possible regarding: How many lodges were in the original Hunkpapa hoop (just an estimate. not an exact number. tens or hundreds) ? How was the ratio between Cheyenne and Lakota in the original Hunkpapa (50:50 or 10:90 or ?) ? Is it known which Cheyenne band(s) formed the original Hunkpapa ? (Omissis and Suhtai are the most suspicious ones)"
Read more: amertribes.proboards.com/thread/1823/oglala-band-structure#ixzz2VqYGe7SnI don't think we can know for sure about such matters, unfortunately. Lt GK Warren had some important remarks about early Hunkpapa-Cheyenne relations. In his 1855 journal he observed that the Hunkpapas had "about 100 years ago . . . mixed with 165 lodges of Sheyens." In his published report of his explorations he noted that the Hunkpapas "formerly intermarried extensively with the Shyennes." The Lower Yanktonai winter count of John K. Bear mentions under 1761 that the Hunkpapa and Sihasapa came to camp with the Yanktonai. That and the Warrene ref. to the event of c. 1755 are the earliest attestations of the Hunkpapa known to me. The Hunkpapas quarrelled with the Oglala over the allocation of booty and war honours after one (or possibly more) victories over the Omaha. The Battiste Good winter count reports such victories in c. 1744 and 1752. hreinn pointed out the 1744 entry as a possible context and I do feel that the split - I think it took a few years to become final - fits into that period. The way I read the evidence is that part of the Oyuhpe band, a family cluster based round the later Iron Horn/Bear Face/Red Thunder family, was the core of one band of the proto-Hunkpapa. I also think that part of the Shiyo band, already associated with the proto-Oglala, formed a second breakaway group, and that the contemporary war chief of the Shiyo led the group. I suspect this man was Black Moon I, ancestor of the famous Hunkpapa ceremonial leader. There is a recurrence of shiyo (Prairie Chicken) family names in the Hunkpapa group associated with Black Moon and adherents in the 19th c. The Long Soldier winter count is emphatic that the first Hunkpapa chief was a Black Moon. Numbers of people in the founding Hunkpapa camp: perhaps low hundreds? Impossible to say really. In my population article I reconstructed Hunkpapa population as of 1804 at about 1600 people. I would say that Warren's remarks make me think that the Cheyenne input must have been significant. By 1804 there had been two generations of that input. Remember also the John Moore analysis of Cheyenne demography which showed that the Shiyo band itself was already (i.e. pre-1750) heavily intermarried with the Cheyenne. I strongly believe that what looks like a new radical event, in this case Hunkpapa meet Cheyenne in 1750s and intermarry extensively, on close analysis proves to be a predictable continuation of older patterns. What Cheyenne bands may have been specially involved in the Hunkpapa formation? Again, simple answer is we don't know. Not sure about the Suhtai, but logic suggests it was those bands settled at earth lodge villages in North Dakota on the Missouri and Sheyenne rivers (and not those already centring near the Black Hills, which we know from Grinnell and George Bent included the Heviqsnipahis with the Sacred Arrows; and part of the Suhtai with the Sacred Hat.) So-o-o-o-, my guess would run toward the Omisis and their offshhot Wutapiu. But open to other thoughts.
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Post by hreinn on Jun 11, 2013 6:31:37 GMT -5
Kingsley ! Thanks for fast and detailed answers. I thought I had to wait for your book to see if these questions could be answered. But again, it will be interesting to read your book. Hreinn
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dado
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Post by dado on Jun 21, 2013 9:01:42 GMT -5
Hello Hreinn, Hi Kingsley, thanks for the additional information and in-depth analysis on the topic "Early History of the Lakota and Oglala". We summarize briefly what we know this from historical sources, from you and what we suspect. The history of the Teton Sioux start at around 1640 and 1650 (Jean Nicolet). For Example, the Saone have been attacked by the Cree and the Assiniboines (formerly part of the Yanktonai Sioux) in the second half of the 17th Century. Louis Hennepin meets 1679/80 and Le Sueur in 1700 the Tetons as a division of the Sioux on the Mississippi River and Blue Earth River. Probably the Sioux Nation then consisted of about 1,000 tents. Le Sueur estimates 1700 4000 people, in 1736, there is a number from 8-10000 people. Interestingly, Hennepin lists five different groups. - Issati - later Santee - Nadoussans - Tintonha (Inhabitants of Meadows) – the Mother Nation of the later Teton Lakota - Quadebathon (Men of Rivers) – later Wahpeton - Chongasketon (Nation Wolf or Dog) – later Sisseton 4000 people would mean about 500-800 people for a group (see above), so therefore each about 7-12 extended families. The mapmakers of Le Sueur, J.B.L. Franquelin gives us 1697/1700 further detailed messages. He mentioned East of the Mississippi: 1. Psinchaton - Nation rouge 2. Ouapeton - Nation à la feuille - Wahpeton 3. Ouiatspouiton - Nation du foyer – Kingsley’s Ouiatspouiton (Proto-Oglalas?) 4. Psinchaton - Nation de la jambe à la folle avoine 5. Tongapsiton - Nation de la grande folle avoine 6. Ouadebaton - Nation de la rivière - Wahpeton 7. Songatsquiton - Nation des homes forts 8. Ocatameneton - Nation des lacs 9. Mantanton - Nation de la grosse roche 10. Quiocpeton - Nation refermè 11. Mendeouacanton - Nation de lac - Mdewakanton West of the Mississippi: 1. Chaienaton - Nation des homes accomplish 2. Ouasicouteton - Nation de pein percè 3. Ouidaougecunaton - Nation de l’Isle pleine 4. Mechameton - Nation des errans 5. Hoheton - Nation des Mors 6. Ouidaougecunaton - Nation de la fiente 7. Ouidachenation - Nation des isles pelèes 8. Menostamenaton - Nation de la pommes de terre 9. Tinton - Nation des prairies – Mother Nation of the Teton Sioux (Sicangu?) 10. Hantiton - Nation de la Cabane au Couteau 11. Hehancton - Nation de la pierre 12. Touchouacsinton - Nation de la perche Unfortunately, the translation is little evidence of a clear assignment to subsequent later groups of Lakota. Number technically you could but get to about 40-50 tents for each group. This means 4-7 different family bands for the Tetons and the Ouiatspouitons. Between 1660 and 1700, the first groups of the Sioux left the region north of the modern Mille Lacs. 1700-1750 we find the so-called "Southern Nation" (see Kingsley's "Making the Sicangu Hoop") south of the Minnesota River and the surrounding area. From this origin, the divisions have developed the later Sicangu and Oglala (from about 1750). The Saone migrated to the Big Stone Lake and on to the James River. They lived there between 1700 and 1760 and in the immediate vicinity of the Yanktonais. Sure is the existence of the "Seven council fires" from 1743, when the brothers La Verendrye visited the Prairie Sioux north of Pierre, South Dakota today. It is also clear that very close relations with the other groups (Nakota and Dakota) have existed throughout the period. A constant mixing and decay of the groups and bands is very likely. The first Lakota then discovered 1766-1775 / 76 the Black Hills. We know of Kingsley that the "Southern Nation" consisted of about 2000 people and probably of two divisions. Speculative, we present for discussion the following system. A) Sicangu hoop with the following bands:a. Isanyati b. Shiyo c. Meat Roasters with sub-bands of Minisha and Kiyuksa d. Middle Village e. Wazhaza (probably later part of the proto-Sicangu) B) Oglala hoop with the a. Bad Face Camp b. Sage's Camp (proto-Ohyupe) c. Proto-Hunkpapa/Sihasapa d. (?) The Saone Circle or Nation consisted of may a. Ti Zaptan (?) b. Proto-Miniconjou c. Glaglahecha (?) d. Chankaohan (Sore Backs) -? However, we are open to other ideas or Interpretation!? It may be supposed, indeed, that the Oglalas emerged from parts of the Ouiatspouitons (proto-Oglala?), the proto-Ohyupe (Saone or Yanktonai background?) and the Real Sans Arcs or Minisha (Sans Arcs roots - see Red Cloud's assertion). Victor Douville called the Shiyo and Minisha as bands of the “Southern Teton Tribal Circle” (early in the 18th century). Hyde calls the Shiyo also independently alongside the Oglala in the period 1750-1790. These were probably - just like the Kiyaksa / Kuhinyan (Santee root of the Oglala) - later part of the tribal circle. Our assumptions: We see the emergence of the Oglala from 1700 as part of the Teton or Western Sioux. Probably there were already a number of different bands within the Tetons (maximum bands or ospaye). Each division was short-lived. However, they were strengthened by each belonging to large families (tiyospahes). Claims, however, have probably the Saone (Nation?) and the so-called “Southern Nation” (origin division of the Brule and Oglala). Have time, it will possibly given more divisions (through its close relationship with the Nakota and Dakota). The proto-Oglalas were either part of a division within the “Southern Nation” or already an independent division (Ouiatspouitons)? The Oglala are then consolidated by marriage and political decision (Combinations). After the collapse of the “Southern Nation” this was the origin of the later Oglala. The later Hunkpapa-Sihasapa have separated between 1750 and 1760 from the Oglala hoop. The first families of the Oglala hoop came thus from the proto-Ohyuphe (Yanktonai or Saone?), the Real Sans Arcs or Minisha family and the proto-Oglala band (Bad Face?). After the invasion of the Chippewa on the Santee (1750), parts of the Kiyuksa / Kuhinyan joined the Oglalas and Sicangu. The Shiyo followed (from 1780 to the Oglala hoop?). More exciting still remains the question: When and in what strength Cheyenne became part of the Oglala? We assume this for the time 1733-1776/1783, when the Cheyenne have long lived on Porcupine Creek. A note could also be the time when the Chippewa have destroyed large groups of Cheyennes (1740 or 1770-1790). The Cheyenne left the area and moved to the Missouri (before the first Lakota) and in the direction of the Black Hills. From this time then start increasing hostilities with the west passing Lakota groups. Kingsley, Hreinn, we look forward to more ideas and suggestions from you to.
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dado
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Post by dado on Jun 21, 2013 12:38:51 GMT -5
We've got another line of reasoning regarding the "Southern Nation." Our feeling about the 4-5 maximum bands within the "Southern Nation" before the above baseline in 1743 could have looked like this.
The tribal circle of the "Southern Nation" (before the separation in Oglala and Sicangu) consisted of 1. Middle Village (proto-Sicangu - formerly the Titon village) 2. Proto-Oglala (with the camps Bad Face, Sage, and later from the Proto-Hunkpapa/Sihasapa) 3. Shiyo 4. Isanyati or Meat Roasters (?)
Greetings from Germany, dado
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Post by kingsleybray on Jun 21, 2013 16:31:18 GMT -5
Very interesting thoughts, dado, and they do have some overlap with my own thinking. Can you explain your reasoning behind the selection of four (a-d)bands comprising the Saone nation?
My thoughts would be that say about 1770, a few years before the split within the Southern nation, there were approximately seven independent bands making up the Itokaga oyate:
1. Middle Village, Chokatonwan. (Descended from Le Sueur's Titons proper village. Core of emergent Sichangu or Brule tribe.) 2. Oglala. (Descended from Le Sueur's Ouiatspouitons.) 3. Shiyo. (For complex reasons I think there is a connection back to Le Sueur's Psinchaton.) 4. Roasters, Wacheunpa. (Includes Kiyuksa. Possibly connected back to Le Sueur's Mechemeton?) 5. Isanyati. (Descended from Le Sueur's Hantiton.) 6. Minishala (split-off from the Sans Arcs/Saones, 1760s). 7. Wazhazha (hybrid band created 1760s by intermarriage linking Roaster/Kiyuksa people with Ponca tribe).
I would link the gradual assimilation of bands 2-7 with Middle Village, so forming the Southern nation, with the succesful hunts mentioned in the Battiste Good winter count, as I very briefly outlined in my article 'Making the Sichangu Hoop'. These years include 1703-04, 1716-17, 1723-24, 1745-46, 1763-64, 1771-72.
This will be dealt with at length in my book. Hope it helps!
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Post by kingsleybray on Jun 22, 2013 3:02:17 GMT -5
Just a few words on overall Dakota (Sioux) population. Three modern scholars have postulated total population at the time of first contact with Europeans (mid-1600s). Conrad E. Heidenreich suggested a range of 8,000-16,000 (Plate 18, Harris & Matthews, Historical Atlas of Canada, Vol. 1: From the Beginning to 1800 [University of Toronto Press]. Gary Clayton Anderson, in his excellent Kinsmen of Another Kind: Dakota-White Relations in the Upper Mississippi Valley, 1650-1862 (University of Nebraska Press, 1984), Chapter Two, makes a detailed case for a much higher figure of approximately 38,000 - comprising 8,000 men,11,000 women, and 19,000 children.
Finally, yours truly in my essay on 'Teton Sioux Population History, 1655-1881'(Nebraska History, Summer 1991), argued that Heidenreich's contact figure was too low, because he goes on to postulate an aggregate Sioux population in c. 1820 of 16,000-30,000. That would involve a period of population growth c. 1650-1820 which is at odds with all scholarship on post-contact native demography. I also argued that Anderson's estimate was too high because it as based in part on "unreliable ratios of men to women to children extrapolated from ninetheenth-century data such as annuity rolls and vaccination censuses. Annuity rolls frequently padded the figures of dependents, while vaccination statistics skew the proportion of children upwards, because they were most at risk from continued exposure to disease" (p. 169).
I then went on to propose my own figure for "1655" as approximately 28,000 people. The effect of European diseases I suggested began to have an effect, so that by 1700 I proposed population at 24,000 - a figure calculated by accepting Le Sueur's estimate of 4,000 FAMILIES (nb - not 4000 people as you mention above, dado), and multiplying by six people per family unit. I go on to propose 21,500 for c. 1765, and 20,900 in 1780, i.e. just BEFORE the smallpox epidemics of 1780-82. In 1785 I propose that Dakota population stood at its lowest point, approximately 17,500, reflecting the devastation of the recent epidemics. After that the tribal population began to grow again, a fact that motored the tribal expansionism of the 19th century. In 1804 I proposed a total population of 18,800, which I broke down as 8,500 Tetons, 2600 Yanktonai, 1900 Yankton, 5800 Santee.
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dado
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Post by dado on Jun 23, 2013 12:39:49 GMT -5
Kingsley, thanks for the note regarding our misjudgment to the population of the Sioux in the 18th Century. We have now investigated further interesting information that we find worth mentioning. First:We refer to an article that was originally published in "The Past Times," vol. IX, No. 4 Inside are some details about the history of the Lakota in the 18th Century. We quote in part: “… A lot happened at the turn of 1600. Two groups of people either moved or were forced out of the lower Great Lakes region, the Hidatsa and the Catawba, both tribes Siouan speakers, both would probably cringe at being identified as anything Sioux. The Hidatsa moved west to the upper Missouri to live with the Mandan. The Catawba who have the oral tradition say that they were pushed south over the Appalachian Mountains by the Iroquois. What the Chippewa called the Iroquois before Beaver Wars is no longer recalled. What they called the Iroquois during and after the wars is recorded as “Nadowaysws,” or “The True Adders.” The Chippewa called their enemies in the western half of the Great Lakes “Nadowaysuaig” or “Nadowaysuis,” translated as Snakes-In-The-Grass or the Lesser Adders. The French couldn’t quite say either word in Chippewa and instead used an adopted short form of the word, “Sioux.” It was about 1640 when the Assiniboine Sioux broke away from the main body of the Great Sioux Nation. The Great Sioux Nation were made up of five Dakota tribes, the Mdewakaŋton, Sisetowon, Waĥpėtowon, Waĥpėkutė, and the Okdada. The Assiniboine have the oral tradition that recalls a fight over meat and broke off from the Yanktonai. This infighting occurred during the Beaver Wars and as the Chippewa were pushing west for territory and furs. Natural resources became scarce forcing people to fight back, move further west, or starve. In one generation, the Assiniboine moved northwest and allied themselves to the Plains Cree and Piegan. The Assiniboine were ever after known to the main body of Sioux as Hohė, or rebels. In 1659-60 the French explorers Pierre Esprit Radisson and Medard Chouart Sieur des Groseilliers journeyed west to Lake Superior and Lake Michigan followed by Jesuit missionaries twenty years later. In 1680 the Jesuits Hennepin and Duluth made contact with the Sioux in northern Minnesota at the height of conflict between the Sioux and Chippewa at Mill Lac. The Okdada Dakota moved west to the Missouri River where, in a generation, changed their lifestyle from sedentary horticulture and hunting to nomadic hunting so completely, changed their dialect, that they came to be called Oglala Lakota. Armed with guns from trade with the English, the Lakota arrived on the plains at nearly the same time as horses, 1692, and took complete advantage of both to the dismay of all tribes on the northern plains, all but the Cheyenne. When the Sioux came to dwell on the plains the only tribe with whom they didn’t have an antagonistic relationship with were the Tsistsistas, who the Sioux referred to as Śahiyėna, or Cheyenne, meaning “Red Talkers.” The relationship didn’t remain friendly for long. Horse stealing raids and skirmishes to gain and control territory became the lifestyle of the Lakota in the early eighteenth century. The first recorded horse stealing raid was against the Hėwaĥtoĥta, the Hidatsa, in 1706. Then a war with the Mandan followed. In fact, so many horse stealing raids occurred in the first half of the 18th century that when Pierre La Verendrye made first contact with the Mandan there were no horses to barter for. La Verendrye walked his entire stay on the northern plains. War between the Sioux and Cheyene broke out around 1740 and lasted until 1766 when a war party of Oglala Lakota attacked a Cheyenne village near present-day Fort Yates, North Dakota. The Cheyenne retaliated by setting fire to the plains. The Oglala’s horses broke free and they were forced to abandon camp and run cross country. The Oglala were forced to run in the flames as the fire caught up to them. They who survived the running the fire jumped into Long Lake. This band of Oglala became known afterward as the Śiċaŋġu, whom the French called Brulė, or Burnt Thigh. The Sioux and Cheyenne put aside their differences and became allies. …” Second:Back to map of J.B.L. Franquelin: Eastern Sioux:1. Psinchaton (Red Nation or Village of red Wild Rice). In the memory of La Sueur western Sioux. 2. Ouacpeton (Leaf Village - Wahpeton). In the notes of La Sueur, however, western Sioux. 3. Ouiatspouiton or Oüiatespouitons (Village that is divided into small groups - Oglala). In Remembrance of La Sueur western Sioux. 4. Psinounaton or Psinoumanitons (Nation that goes with your feet in search of the wild rice or wild rice village). 5. Tangapsinton (Village in the country of the great Wild Rice). In the Wahpeton there is a division called Takápsit. In this map are referred to as "Sioux de l'Est", but in the memory of La Sueur "Sioux de l'Ouest". 6. Ouadebaton (Village of River - part of the Wahpeton). Possibly precursors of the Upper Yanktonai (Small inhabitants of the river = Yanktonai). 7. Songatquiton or Songasquitons (Nation of Strong Men or fortified village). 8. Ocatameneton (Lake Village or Isolated people on a lake in the foothills). 9. Mantanton (Country Rock village or the village on the Great Lake). 10. Quiocpeton or Quioepetons (?). Difficult to translate, perhaps Kiyuksa? 11. Mendeouacanton (Village on the Lake of the Spirit or the Holy Lake Village - Mdewakanton). Western Sioux:12. Chaienaton (Country or Village of different talkers). Sahíena is the origin of the Cheyenne, then still living in the lakes of Minnesota. At La Sueur not mentioned. 13. Ouasicouteton (Village of shooters among the pines - Wazíkute). A band of Upper Yanktonai. 14. Ouidaougeounaton (Village on the island - Sisseton or Wahpeton). Not quoted by La Sueur. 15. Mechemeton (Country or village of the travelers or roamers). The name appears on the map, but not in the diaries of La Sueur. - Roasters? 16. Hocheton (Village of the rebels). The name appears on the map, but not in the diaries of La Sueur. 17. Onghetgechaton or Onghetgéodatons (People in manure / cactus / dung Country). The Dung Eaters were a band of the later Minneconjou and Itazipco. 18. Ouidachenaton (land of the deforested islands). The name appears on the map, but not in the diaries of La Sueur. 19. Menostamenaton (Village of Perfume Roots of Wild Potato). The name appears on the map, but not in the diaries of La Sueur. 20. Tinton (People of the Prairie - Teton), located on the map at the Big Stone Lake, the headwaters of the Minnesota River. 21. Isantiton (Literally: Village of tabernacles [tipi] on the knife - Isanti, Isanyati or Santee) The misunderstanding between "knife" and "hill" comes from the French "couteau" since it can mean both knife and hills. May respect to Pipestone Quarry (in sioux, the word knife should be understood as "stone to make the knife"). Also unmentioned by La Sueur. 22. Hehancton or Hinhanetons (people at the end of the country / stone – Yankton). 23. Touchouaccinton or Touchououacsintons ("tipi poles" village). 24. Psinoutanguienton or Psinoutanghihintons (Village of Big Wild Rice). 25. Ouacpecouteton (Village of shooters under the leaves - Wahpekute). 26. Inhanctonouanan or Hinanhetonsouanons (Small village at the end - Yanktonai). 27. Titangongihatons or Titanghaongiaton (Village of the large cabins). This name is mentioned in the diaries of La Sueur, but not the map of Franquelin or in the notes of Delisle. Third (Saone Nation), to continue tomorrow.
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dado
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Post by dado on Jun 24, 2013 1:13:53 GMT -5
Another addition to the Onghetgechaton or Onghetgéodatons (see the above list at Western Sioux, paragraph 17). The "Dung Eaters" (Unkche yuta) were a band of the later Miniconjou. The "Bull Dung" (Tatanka Cesli) tiyospahe belonged to the later Itazipco camp circle. So here we find rather a reference to the Unkche yuta (Onghetgechaton) than on the Tatanka Cesli. Our thoughts on the "Saone Nation" soon.
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dado
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Post by dado on Jun 24, 2013 11:31:50 GMT -5
Third:Secured historical sources to the Titon-Saone are scarce. Therefore, we can only speculate. Kingsley, surely you have more profound interpretations. The following factors could have influence: - See above: The Onghetgechaton or Onghetgéodatons could be the forerunner of the later Dung Eaters at the Minneconjou. - Hyde has speculated about a connection between the Wazikute (Santee) and the Saone (Yanktonai). The Titon-Saone to have originated from these bands? - From the analysis of "Joseph N. Nicollets account of the Sioux and Assiniboin in 1839 "(RAYMOND J. DE MALLIE, JR), we would like to cite the following: [ … Also suggestive is the dichotomy of the Tetons into the Sichangu (Brule), the "Blackened People," and Saone, the "Whitened People." From this it is possible to hypothesize that the Brules and Saones were the original Teton groups, representing the first division of the Teton; from there the Brules seem to have subdivided into Brules and Oglalas, while the Saones subdivided into the other five Teton tribes. … In other manuscripts Nicollet notes that one of the Yanktonai bands was also called Saone (in the Yankton dialect, Sanoda), suggesting some kind of relationship between the two groups. Perhaps the Yanktonai was the parent group of the Teton as well as of the Assiniboin, or perhaps a group of the Saone Tetons remained behind on the east side of the Missouri and joined the Yanktonai. ... The Titons-one should say, like them, Tintonwanyan, "the people who have for a long time made villages on the big prairies"; from tinta, "prairie," otonwe, "village," yan, indicating "antiquity." They were, therefore, formerly to the north of the Missouri, bordering the river from the Big Sioux River and Lake Titanka to below the Mandans. Then they were only one nation, the Tintonwans, abbreviated from Tintonwanyans; then, as today, very numerous, fearing no neighboring nation, and carrying their [own law] everywhere. Today they are divided into three grand tribes. The Saonis, or "the Whitish People," whose robes are always well whitened with white earth; sa., "whitish," oni, "to rub," iwaon, "I rub," iyaon, "thou rubbest.". …]- The Winter Count of Charging Thunder, the eldest Hunkpapa Winter Count, begins 1761/64. - The note from Warren regarding the origin of the Hunkpapas goes back to about 1755. - The Proto-Hunkpapa Sihasapa to be descended from the Proto-Oglala. - Truteau spoke 1795 of the Saone as a group of Sioux, who lived east of the Missouri. They were considered as "Northern Indians" and were a separate group under the Titons. The Saone were divided into five bands. They warred the Arikara. However, Truteau learned of the Arikara that most of the Saone were "good people" and that one of their bands were lived near the village of the Arikara. In June of the same year Truteau recalled the "Ta corpa", warned the Arikara against an attack of various bands of the Sioux. This band was named by Lewis and Clark as "Ta-co-eh-pa" and belonged to the Minneconjou tribe. - Oglala's No Ears's Winter Count: 1786 - first mention of the band "Metal Hair Ornaments". - We also know from Kingsley's excellent article: "ORIGINS OF THE Sihasapa (BLACKFOOT SIOUX) TRIBE "the following: [ … The proto Hunkpapa-Sihasapa group, were originally part of the Oglala. They broke away and intermarried with other Tetons and other tribes like the Cheyennes and Arikaras.… According to traditions from the Cheyenne River Reservation (where part of the Sihasapa also settled) at a time when the Tetons were encamped on the Vermillion River in southeast South Dakota, a smaller camp stayed behind when the main village moved on. Meshing tradition with contemporary European accounts and maps, my guess would be that this split fits somewhere in the period 1725-50. One extended family group of the stay-behinds, maybe 60 people, stuck together to form their own tiyoshpaye. Living in five tipis, they were a small band to claim autonomy – symbolised by a council fire that band elders preserved as they moved across the prairies – so they were known as Ti-Zaptan or Five Lodges. … At some point probably in the period 1775-1800 a very prestigious family from the Miniconjou tribe joined the Sihasapa. The family was that of Fire Heart. The first leader of that name was said to have been a Miniconjou who flourished in the 1730s, according to family traditions collected by Col. Welch. Fire Heart II seems to have been the leader who brought the family into the Sihasapa circle. Because the Sihasapa share one band name with the Miniconjou – the Glaglahecha or Slovenly band – it may be that the Fire Heart dynasty is to be identified with the Glaglahecha. Again, Fire Heart family descendants may hold the knowledge that can help us identify their ancestral tiyoshpaye. The Glaglahecha band among the Miniconjou is identified with another great chiefly dynasty of the Tetons, the White Swan (Maga Ska) family. …]As might be suspected. The Saone formed from parts of the Titon Villages (La Sueur), from Yanktonais and from groups of the Southern Nation. The Sun Dance Circle of the Saone could possibly have looked as follows for the period 1760-1795: A) Proto-Miniconjou (from Dung Eaters and either the Ta-co-eh-pa or the Glaglahecha) Later, the Broken Arrows (Two Lance family) created a third sub-band. B) Either the Glaglahecha or Ta-co-eh-pa C) Proto-Hunkpapa (from Ohyuphe [later Sorebacks?] and Shiyo) D) Proto-Sihasapa (Ti-zaptan and more?) E) Proto-Itazipco (Metal Hair Ornaments and Minisha) The influence of Yanktonais and / or Arikara (and more other strains) remains open for us. However, we are open to other ideas or interpretation.
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Post by kingsleybray on Jun 24, 2013 16:22:21 GMT -5
I agree about the possible connection between Le Sueur's Onghetgechaton (Dung village) and the later Miniconjou band, Unkche-yuta, or Dung Eaters. Glaglahecha (the band associated with the White Swan dynasty) I think were likely a sister or offshoot band of Unkche-yuta, as were the Shell Earrings (Inyanha-owin, Makes Room-White Bull dynasty).
The Broken Arrow-Two Kettle band: remain problematic to me. The Arikaras have traditions of an ancient village called the Broken Arrows that left the Missouri valley to become buffalo hunting nomads. Is that a connection?
The Miniconjou band name recorded Ta Coropa (by Truteau, 1795); Tacohiropapais (Tabeau, 1803-04) and Tar co eh parh (Lewis & Clark, 1804): could it include Oyuhpe? The element rendered "oropa", "hiropa"(+pi = plural suffix), and "o eh parh" may be attempts at writing Oyuhpe. The whole word being possibly Taku-oyuhpe, 'something thrown down'. That has been my working solution, anyway. We know that the later Oyuhpe band of Oglalas had extremely strong Miniconjou associations. In fact, Lone Horn the Miniconjou chief is identified by Eagle Elk (statement to Donald Collier, 1939)as the headman of an Oyuhpe extended family. According to my theory (and it is that, not proven!) the Oyuhpes were a leading band of the proto-Oglala in the generation 1725-50. I think they joined the Miniconjou, perhaps later in the 1770s after some quarrel - maybe the quarrel over horses recorded by American Horse (under 1776-77) and Cloud Shield (under 1778-79). They returned to the Oglalas across the period 1810-35.
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dado
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Post by dado on Jun 28, 2013 3:59:04 GMT -5
From the book "John Grass, American Indian Patriot" written by Angela A. Green Boleyn, we have found the following interesting details. “ … With the gift of the Pipes, Oceti Sacowin attained the status of seven distinct tribes, each with its own position in the great circle of circles. To the right of the entrance were camped: 1. Hunkpati, Those At the End of the Village; - Hunkpapa 2. Hunka Wapaya, Those Farther From the End of the Village; - Yanktonai 3. Wacayukapa, Drags Them Down the tribe noted for their swift horses. They had once ridden down and dragged from their mounts eight daring enemies who had stolen into the encampment; 4. Saones, Those Who Wear Honor Well, the parent body - the keystone of the round arch - the First, or Royal Family; 5. Mnikan Ye Yozupi, Those Who Plant By the Water; - Miniconjou 6. Itazipcos, those Who Make Fine Bows and Arrows; - Itazipco 7. Ihanka en Tunwanyanpi, The Big Village A the Other End, - Yanktons
A nation calling themselves Seven Council Fires but knowing they were also Saones, historian after historian would inform his listening tribesmen as he sketched in sand or ashes that early camping pattern. From these seven tribes, each with its own developing gentes which in time divided, seven being a sacred number and the symbol of completeness, were the many tribes and gentes of the Saones formed. The names of the tribes had also undergone changes. Sometime during the long migration, probably after the trek up the Mississippi Valley was under way, the parent body, the first Saones, whose rulers led the way, had become known as Maka Icu, implying "Those Who Go Ahead and Prepare the (Earth) Way". • Perhaps this Maka Icu is a reference to one of the later main Oyuhpe sub-bands: Makaichu? • The "Wacayukapa, Drags Them Down" might be an indication of the "Taku Oyuhpe, 'something thrown down" (Oyuhpe) "? This would support the theory that the Oyuhpe actually have been a part of the Saone nation at the end of the 18th Century. Present day descendants of Chief John Grass state, "We are studying this thing and we know definitely the names of nine such hereditary rulers who go back to the parent body of the Saones - the Great Coat or Great Robe of Chieftaincy passing from father to son. So at this point in our study we say the hereditary chieftains start with: 1. Oompah, The Moose. In white history books he was mistakenly recorded as 'The Big Deer', the French interpreter's vocabulary being so limited that he did not know the English word for 'moose'. He probably said, 'Well, it is something like a big deer'. He probably said, 'Well, it is something like a big deer'. The Moose was an Oohenopa-Saone, the Oohenopas being a gens of the parent tribe. We place the Moose in white history by explaining that he signed the treaty of 1815.” 2. Hehaka Tanka, the Big Elk, was the son of the Moose. He was also an Oohenopa-Saone. He signed the Treaties of 1815, 1825 and 1830.” White history has much to say about The Big Elk, although it spelled his name Ong-pa-tonka and Oupaatanga. He was sixty-six years old when he was in Washington in 1821, being one of the few Indians, according to white records, who knew his correct age. He was born in 1755. Opposite his picture, which appears in Aboriginal Portfolio of individual Indians of the 1825 Treaty, is a description which states in part, “There are few aboriginal Chiefs whose character may be contemplated with so much complacency as that of Big Elk, who is not only a able but a highly estimable man. He is principal chief of his nation. He is known for fair dealing, hospitality and friendship. He is a diplomat. Always asked the advice of his people….He is an orator and gave the funeral oration for Black Buffalo, a Minneconjou chief, in 1811, which white history recorded. The Big Buffalo died in 1846 at the age of ninety-one years.” He became an old-old-man chief. • Perhaps this Ong-pa-tonka or Oupaatanga is a reference to the Paouaitonga (c. 1745-75 - Big Tangled Hair or Big Twisted Hair), Kingsley mentioned above. The French would have varied in their documents "Ong-pa-tonka" in "Paouaitonga" (maybe a translation error)? 3. Tatanka Tanka, The Big Buffalo, was the first son of The Big Elk. He was also an Oohenopa-Saone. He signed the Treaty of 1825. An interesting bit of history told this writer by Chief Standing Alone is that Tatanka Tanka also had a white wife (a captive?) and they had a child whom they named “The Holy Peace Pipe On His Head.” This child became the next chief of the Oohenopa gens. 4. Hehaka Wascasi, The Elk Man, was the second son of The Big Elk and became chief when The Big Buffalo died. His gens was Saone and his tribe was Saone.” His mother was another wife of The Big Elk, of the Saone gens. In the Dakota nation the man is the head of the family. The chieftaincy descended from father to son, the eldest taking precedent. But in making up the gentes the woman was an equal factor with the man. The Elk Man met the explorers, Merriweather Lewis and William Clark, in 1804, granting them permission to ascend the Missouri River. He was presented with a Thomas Jefferson Presidential Silver Medal by them. In 1823 he presided at the last gathering of the Seven Council Fires in present South Dakota. At that time he invited the six Minnesota tribes who were being pressed by whites, to move west of the Missouri “where the buffalo are never ending and few white men come”. 5. Sicola un, The Warrior Who Walked Barefoot, was the song of Elk Man. He was also known by his father’s name as well as by ‘the Chief’, ‘Grandfather’ and ‘Pezhi, The Grass’ – ‘The Grass’ destined to become the dynastic name of his descendants. With his father, he also received the Thomas Jefferson medal. Later, the Franklin Pierce medal dated 1853 – and known as the Labor, Virtue and Honor Medal – was bestowed on him. Back again many questions, but maybe thoughts that could be pursued.
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dado
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Post by dado on Dec 29, 2013 8:04:31 GMT -5
Interesting new details about the early tribal structure of the Oglala (We refer to Kingsley's statement in "American Horse"!). As Resume: • The extent to which the Ouiatspouiton or Ouiatespouitons ( Village is divided into small groups did - Oglala ) of La Sueur have been the original proto- Oglala is doubtful? • For the incident "dirt scattering" (about 1725?), we have two sources found: - Eli S. Ricker: The Indian Interviews , Philip F. Wells in Sioux tribes and bands - Col. A. B. Welch: Interviews of “Old- Timers" and Notes on Tribal Histories Wells mentions in his story two "sons" (or protagonists ), while Welch names three “sons”. Two protagonists seem to be important in the context of the emergence of the Oglala. First Son = leader of the Kiyuksa in the Oglala Second Son = founder of the original Ite Shicha Third Son = possibly the remaining part of the Kiyuksa, which remained with the other bands of the Western Sioux
Were two of the three protagonists Buffalo Shield and Bear Boy or his " father"? Who were the third?
Kingsley, what new ideas and thoughts to our questions from the summer of 2013 (see our references from June 28 2013 ) do you have?
We wish a healthy, contented and peaceful 2014 dado
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Post by kingsleybray on Dec 29, 2013 9:05:26 GMT -5
According to the story I was told, the main protagonists were two sons of Holy Standing Buffalo, born to two different mothers, who quarrelled after their father assigned the primary lineal descent of the Kiyuksa band to the elder son.
The younger son threw dirt in his brother's face and declared "From now on, we are Oglala!" The older brother's band was the Kiyuksa, the younger one's was the Bad Face. Collectively the whole group was henceforth called Oglala.
Who were the sons of Holy Standing Buffalo? This was not made clear to me, but we know the family was in the direct ancestry of the Bull Bears and some other leading families of the 19th c.
I think the eldest son was probably Stone Knife I, the paternal grandfather of Bull Bear. I have a theory about the younger brother that I am working out the implications of. There seems to have been a third brother, Black Moccasin, the father of Standing Bull.
The date frame 1725-50 would seem to be the correct one. I have worked out a detailed chronology and a historical context grounded in contemporary French documents, which I would like to keep back pending completion of my book!
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dado
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Post by dado on Dec 31, 2013 15:27:09 GMT -5
Kingsley, thank you for your answers. We are eagerly awaiting your new book about the making of the Lakota. What title will it have? When it is laid?
Of course, many questions remain, for example, With what extended family (pipe keeper) came the "sacred pipe" of the Kiyuksa to Minisha? If the Kiyuksa were the origin of the Oglala which old bands were the origin of the Saone and Sicangu? What role did LeSueur's "Quiatspouiton", "Quiocpeton", "Mechemeton" Onghetgechaton "and" Tinton "for the emergence of the later Lakota? ...
We hope that these points will be deepened in this thread or in your book.
Good luck for your book and thanks for the work.
dado
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dado
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Post by dado on Aug 30, 2014 7:12:07 GMT -5
Many new information (Kinsley in “Standing Bull”) that will lead us to new ideas. Thanks Kingsley.
Here, in an idea for a summary: “Holy Standing Buffalo” (from about 1675)
First Son “Black Moccasins” Second Son “Stone Knife” Third Son “Bear Boy” (“Minishala”-Nation, later Sans Arcs) (This sons founded the Oglala Nation from about 1725.) “Kiyaksa”-Nation “Mahto”-Nation or “Itesica”-Nation [Of this group, the so-called “Sage Camp” seperated (Oiyuphe) from about 1725/1730.] Band Leaders from about 1755: Band Leaders from about 1755:
Bull Hoop, Stone Knife, White Swan Sitting Bear, Three Bear, Yellow Eagle I Body Parts (by marriage) Standing Bull I (by marriage)
To complement this, we have the following questions and we ask for response. Was one of „Black Moccasins“ brothers („Red Hair“ oder „Thinking while walking“) the ancestor of the later “Grow Feather”-family line among the Sans Arcs?
How is the family line of "Buffalo Shield" in the Oglala band Structure classify between about 1720-1760?
Grüße aus Deutschland, dado!
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