I'have a question for mr Bray : I your post of may 13 , 2013 concerning te organisation of the Oglala tribe in 1804 , you mentionned the maximal band Shiyo with three sub-bands ( Shiyo Tanka , Homna and Shiyo-Suhula ). In your second post (may 12 ,2017 ) about the same subject these three names had disappeared , so I would like to know what they represented ! Many thanks !
In December 1867-January 1868 there were two basic Northern Oglala villages. Red Cloud's village of 200 lodges spent the early part of the winter on upper Rosebud creek. Its council was based on the Ska Yuha (White Horse Owners) society, and its complement of four Deciders were Red Cloud, Black Twin, High White Man, Standing Bear. Red Cloud's brother Spider filled important akichita functions and served as an intermediary, counselling at both Ft Phil Kearny and Ft Laramie.
This is how I see the breakdown:
Bad Face 60 lodges Hunkpatila 10 lodges True Oglala 10 lodges Spleen 20 lodges Oyuhpe 100 lodges
At the same time Man Afraid of His Horse was encamped near Bear Lodge Butte at the nw. corner of the Black Hills. The village, by difference 140 lodges, recognized the chiefs' society, or Bull Headdress Wearers, as the council. The breakdown approximates:
Bad Face 20 lodges Hunkpatila 60 lodges True Oglala 40 lodges Spleen 20 lodges
In February 1868 25 lodges left Man Afraid of His Horse's village for Fort Laramie pending treaty talks. I reconstruct the makeup as:
Spleen 10 lodges headman Face Hunkpatila 10 lodges headman Yellow Eagle Bad Face 5 lodges headman Milk
In March 1868 the two major villages, now aggregating 315 lodges, gathered near Powder R. forks, probably in a cluster of camps strung along the river. By early April they were resorted into four separate camps nearer the Black Hills, recorded by Lakota messengers from Ft Laramie as follows:
Man Afraid of His Horse & Red Cloud 90 lodges at Bear Lodge creek American Horse (True Oglala) 50 lodges head Bear Lodge creek Bad Face 100 lodges on Belle Fourche Oyuhpe 75 lodges on Belle Fourche
How had the bands resorted? Perhaps like this:
Red Cloud & Man Afraid of His Horse Bad Face 30 lodges Hunkpatila 30 lodges Spleen 30 lodges
American Horse True Oglala 50 lodges
Bad Face camp Bad Face 45 lodges Hunkpatila 30 lodges Oyuhpe 25 lodges
Oyuhpe camp Oyuhpe 75 lodges
As treaty negotiations at Fort Laramie drew nearer, and spring drew on, the four camps moved toward reunion in a single village. Since the Man Afraid & Red Cloud camp was recounted at 100 lodges by the end of April, 10 lodges have moved into it. From known activities, this must be American Horse bringing his own tiyoshpaye of True Oglala. The council then deputed American Horse to go to the fort and attend the Brule negotiations then being held there.
Shortly after that the other three camps, aggregating 215 lodges, united into a single village.
This is the post that made me sign up finally after reading the site for some time. This is amazing to me, for this is something I have been trying to do myself for the Oglala and the Northern Cheyenne for the 1865 to 1868 time frame. This whole thread in fact is really impressive, the knowledge base here is astounding. Thank you.
Is there anything like this on the site for the early '65 gathering in the north of the Cheyenne, Arapaho and the Lakota? The one where they decided on Platte Bridge as the target.
I am trying to figure out which bands were there and where they had come from and their estimated size, just like this listing you've done here. Also the warrior societies distribution, if at all possible, even if it is an educated guess. I think George Bent's writings on their locations and movements are probably the best we have, but he doesn't go into bands and sizes very much.
I know that the Southern Oglala of Pawnee Killer and others went north, as did most of the Southern Cheyenne, other than Black Kettle and some others, and that the Sitting Bull Hunkpapa from the Missouri came southwest, but I would love something like this for that big gathering, I think it was May of '65?
I'm also curious about the Lakota divisions of Powder, southern and Missouri river, I'm not as well read on them as I am the Cheyenne.
Thanks again to everyone in this thread!
Cheyenne Primacy: The Tribes' Perspective As Opposed To That Of The United States Army Dr. Margot Libery and W. Raymond Wood, Ph.D., Emeritus, University of Missouri
Skokpa, the founding wicoti of the Spleen band: was itself ultimately derived from the Minisala grouping. As such it was associated with the Brule (Sicangu) tribal division of the Lakota. In the late 18th c. it realigned to the Shiyo band, which is where we find it in the 1804 Oglala camp circle.
Yellow Leggings, Bad Face wicoti headman in the early 19th c. -- was the father of Brave Bear and so the paternal grandfather of George Sword and Afraid of Bear. I don't know how he was, or if he was, related to Fast Whirlwind.
Unfortunately my Oglala sources do not shed any new light on Iron Hatchet's role in the formation or re-founding of the Payabya band. They are familiar with Iron Hatchet, aka Black Bird, as a brother of Bull Bear, but are unaware of his Payabya connections. What has been made clear to me is that Payabya was an old band, long predating the 19th c.
At the 1804 timeframe the Man Afraid of His Horse family was living with the Kuhinyan band which had left the Oglala circle and was shifting btw the Oglalas and the Sicangus. It returned to the Oglala hoop in 1818.
Also, grigoryev, some of your reconstructions of Lakota band names are wrong: I have reposted my message to include the Lakota names.
Later this year, Nebraska History nagazine is publishing my article on the Oglalas and the Atkinson-O'Fallon Treaty, which will include a full presentation of the 1825 Oglala camp circle.
Hello Kingsley - In your statement here you mention a Iron Hachet aka Black Bird. Would you happen to know the name or, names of any of his wives ? One of Charging Eagle's wives was named; Paints Herself Yellow b. 1842. A document I have, states her parents were; Father = Black Bird and Mother = Iron Comes Out Thanks, kakarns
In Refer. to the research request concerning Black Bird.: I am questioning the records I have on Black Bird and wife, Iron Comes Out.
1.) The document (Form 5--153), I have for Charging Eagle's marriage to Paints Herself Brown (Yellow), shows a birth date of 1842 for her. 2.) A document I have, states her parents were; Father = Black Bird and Mother = Iron Comes Out. [Read more: amertribes.proboards.com/thread/1823/oglala-band-structure?page=11#ixzz5A03rvlYP] 3.) The records that I have concerning an Oglala - Black Bird and wife, Iron Comes Out is something like this; Comes Out2 (---) (Angelina1 (---)), born 1874 in Oglala Sioux Nation South Dakota. She married Frank Black Bird, born 1872 in Oglala Sioux Nation; died 14 Jun 1926 in Pine Ridge, Shannon, South Dakota, son of Face (---) and Red Bird (---). 4.) Note the ages of Black Bird and his wife, compared to the age listed for Paints Herself Brown (Yellow).
There was a long line of Yellow Eagles who were all identified with the Hunkpatila band, according to my Oglala friends. The first was probably born in the decade 1700-10. He was the son of the Hunkpatila chief Buffalo Shield (approximate dates 1675-1750). Buffalo Shield was also recalled by He Dog in his 1931 interview with Mari Sandoz: "Before we crossed the Missouri we hunted that far for buffalo. (In Buffalo Shield's time.)"
I knew that there was a persistent 'brother' relationship between the Yellow Eagle line and the Man Afraid of His Horse dynasty. Fortunately my friend had been buddies with Carlos Yellow Eagle (killed in Vietnam) who said according to family tradition that the mother of the first Yellow Eagle was a sister to the mother of the contemporary Afraid of Horse (or Afraid of Dog in that timeframe). In Lakota kinship terms that meant the two boys grew up as 'brothers.' It was a genuine close affinity, and when they in turn married (should be around 1730 ballpark) they married another pair of 'sisters' - or at least women from the same family. In this way the relationship continued down the generations.
There was a line of descendants of the first Yellow Eagle, with that name being passed down in one of the leading families of the Hunkpatila band. Nicollet in 1839 is the first white source to mention the dynasty. He is listed in Culbertson's 1850 table of Lakota leaders -- the source for the Red Lodge band identity. A Yellow Eagle signed the 1868 Treaty at Ft Laramie. In 1870 he was identified as a brother to Old Man Afraid of His Horse and was killed in a riding accident. His son succeeded him, a war leader with a close affinity to Crazy Horse. I confess to not knowing what happened to the family btw this man and the Carlos Yellow Eagle I mentioned.
I wasn't able to find anything about the band name Red Lodge.
Dear Kingsley, my name is Luca and I'm from Italy. I read with a great interest some your post about Hunkpatila band. I'm curious about the Red Lodge Band and what happened after 1870 to Yellow Eagle dynasty. Did the band escape to Canada? Thanks a lot for any information about that. Luca
I was wondering if we could say that Old Man Afraid never belonged to Hunkpatila ?
When Old Man Afraid was "invited over" by Yellow Eagle in 1835. With the result that Old Man Afraid was made Shirt Wearer of Oglala Proper Division (oshpaye ?) in 1835.  Where Oglala Proper was or became an alliance of Hunkpatila + True Oglala (partly) + Payabya. (Other parts of True Oglala belonged to Kiyuksa-Kuhinayan Division (oshpaye ?)) [1, 2] Old Man Afraid belonged to the Payabya branch of this alliance called Oglala Proper.
Old Man Afraid was born in Kuhinayan tiyoshpaye and at some point before 1835 became part of Payabya tiyoshpaye (by marriage ?). And after that, Old Man Afraid always belonged to Payabya. But Old Man Afraid never belonged to Hunkpatila. But since Payabya was part of Oglala Poper along with Hunkpatila (and part of True Oglala), it had seemed that Old Man Afraid belonged to Hunkpatila. Can we say that ?
In the same nature, it could be said that the 4 Wicasa Itancan invested in 1845 among Oglala Proper   belonged to the following branches  of this alliance: Smoke belonged to the True Oglala branch Shell Man belonged to the Payabya branch Standing Bull 3 belonged to the Hunkpatila branch (and had also True Oglala roots) Yellow Eagle 5 belonged to the Hunkpatila branch
In the same nature, the brothers Black Rock (He Dog's father) and Bad Wound never belonged to Hunkpatila. But their tiyoshpaye belonged to the True Oglala branch of Oglala Proper. So when Bad Wound went south after arguing with Old Man Afraid in 1845. Bad Wound did not leave Hunkpatila, but instead he left Oglala Proper.
In the same nature, Smoke never belonged to Hunkpatila. Smoke belonged to the True Oglala branch of Oglala Proper.
Can we say that also ?
1. Kingsley M. Bray: "Lakota Statesmen and the Horse Creek Treaty of 1851", Nebraska History, Volume 98, Number 3, Fall 2017, page 162 2. Kingsley M. Bray: "The Oglala Lakota and the Atkinson-O'Fallon Treaty of 1825" Nebraska History, Volume 98, Number 3, Fall 2017, pages 142-144
Post by kingsleybray on Jun 24, 2020 9:29:15 GMT -5
I will try to look at some of the points you raise, hreinn, but obliquely. Like many of us I expect, I used to be of the belief that Payabya was a late-occurring band name and that it referred to elements of the Hunkpatila band which chose to settle at the Red Cloud Agency after 1870, the main leadership being vested in the Man Afraid of His Horse family. The Hunkpatila proper, by the same analysis, remained a non-treaty hunting band in the Powder River Country, leadership focusing on Crazy Horse and his relatives. The fact that both band names refer to a position at the entrance or 'horn' of the camp circle compounded the problem in interpretation.
I'd come to realize that this was over-simplistic, but my understanding of all Oglala band histories has been exponentially widened in the last five years through the generosity, knowledge and insight of friends at Pine Ridge. I've been privileged to access winter count histories that remain unpublished, preserved in family homes. From these data, we can say that the historic Oglala tribe consisted of four main or primary bands, each with a distinctive history and identity.
You'll notice that the Hunkpatila and Oyuhpe were originally a single group. They divided in two in 1710. However they remained or perhaps restored friendship. Over much of the 19th century we can see a trend which favoured the reunification of the two bands. In fact when the non-treaty bands (returning from Canadian exile, 1877-81) settled with the agency Oglala bands at Pine Ridge, in 1882, many even perhaps most Hunkpatila merged in with Oyuhpe band kin in the Wounded Knee District. The Black Elk family is an excellent example. A part of Hunkpatila following Little Hawk settled with relatives in the Spleen band community, modern Calico, in the White Clay District.
The traditional place of the Hunkpatila in the Oglala tribal circle was the south horn.
The traditional place of the Payabya in the Oglala tribal circle was the north horn. That is why both band names reference the head or horn of the circle.
In the 17th and 18th centuries Payabya was closely aligned with the Shiyo (Sharptail Grouse) band. Kuhinyan was another band identified with this larger grouping. Kuhinyan, however, seems to have been drastically impacted by epidemics and/or warfare at the end of the 1600s. Survivors undoubtedly joined kinsfolk in other bands, but the core Kuhinyan, only about ten lodges (headman: Feather Man), merged in with the Kiyuksa in the early 1700s. This is why Kuhinyan becomes a nested band within the Kiyuksa in the 19th century.
The Man Afraid of His Horse family was from earliest times identified with Payabya. 'Old' Man Afraid of His Horse (c. 1807-1889) however did merge his personal camp following with the Hunkpatila in 1835, as you had noted, hreinn. I think in his life we see a constant theme about reintegrating disparate bands into a stronger Oglala oyate or tribal division. By the 1840s Man Afraid of His Horse had emerged as the key leader in Payabya, Spleen, and Hunkpatila. Spleen were derived from Sicangu (Brule) people who had aligned to the old Shiyo division late in the 1700s. The Shiyo proper had dissolved, the last remnant according to my information merging in with the Bad Face band (headman: Smoke) in the early 1840s.
Hunkpatila: the above suggests a genuine tension within that band, one trend favouring reintegration with the Oyuhpe, the other to the Payabya-Spleen. I think that tension may have looked different year-to-year. It had clear political implications because the Oyuhpe, the northernmost of Oglala bands, was also the most skeptical of alliance with the USA, the most supportive of the greater isolationism favoured by northern Lakota divisions e.g. the Hunkpapa. I wrote about this in my article on 'Lakota Statesmen and the Horse Creek Treaty of 1851'. Man Afraid of His Horse, by contrast, urged closer treaty relations between the Lakota and the Americans.
Man Afraid of His Horse seems to have been at some pains to integrate with the Hunkpatila, hreinn, in 1835+, because his Kapozhela sub-band from Payabya and elements of the Lightning Lance sub-band of Hunkpatila (including Crazy Horse's family) merged in together. My hunch is that one or more hunka ceremonies cemented that bond. (Hunka is a sacred relationship and I chose not to press my friends in identifying possible principals.)
Hope this helps -- if not to answer all questions, perhaps to reframe the assumptions behind them! At least that's what happened to me.
OK. As I understood your 2 above mentioned articles, there is a distinction between True Oglala and Oglala Proper as follows: True Oglala = tiyoshpaye no. 2+3 (Tashnahecha Yuta + Iya Shicha) Oglala Proper = tiyoshpaye no. 2+3+1+7 (Tashnahecha Yuta + Iya Shicha + Hunkpatila + Payabya)
Which is logical. It is useful and necessary to make this difference.
But based on your above post, this distinction was just a coincidence and you make no distinction between the terms True Oglala and Oglala Proper. Because in your post above, you listed Oglala proper as one of the 4 primary Oglala bands/divisions. As I understood your articles, you would have written True Oglala instead of Oglala proper.
But please notice if your Oglala sources make a distinction between True Oglala and Oglala Proper. That is, when your Oglala sources speak to you about Oglala proper, do they mean the bunch of tiyoshpaye (2+3) ? or do they mean the bunch of tiyoshpaye (2+3+1+7) ?
Post by kingsleybray on Jun 27, 2020 8:02:54 GMT -5
ok, let's try to summarise what I believe to be the case:
The new tribal name Oglala was applied in the mid-1700s. There was a pre-existing tribal grouping, comprising several autonomous bands, but the name Oglala was applied to the group over a generational span beginning in the early 1740s and ending in the late 1760s. Several bands (tiyospaye) and sub-bands (wicoti) became identified as the Original, Real or True Oglala (Oglala-hca). These consisted of:
So we can speak about all these as constituent units of the True Oglala.
If I was looking at the other bands you mention above, hreinn, I would today assign Hunkpatila to its own let's call it maximal band grouping: Hunkpatila-Oyuhpe. Payabya I would assign to the Shiyo band grouping. Once again, every one of the Oglala bands was knit to the rest through intermarriage. Across those maximal band boundaries I've demarcated. Let me see, the Bad Speakers were generated out of marriages linking their ancestral band (called Whetstone, Izuza) to the ancestral Hunkpatila-Oyuhpe. And Ground Squirrel Eaters, Badger Eaters, and Bear People were all generated out of intermarriages linking Whetstone people to Kiyuksas. It seems clear to me that for instance Ground Squirrel Eaters were considered Kiyuksas on occasion, depending on particular historic and political contingencies. What's interesting is that for all that melding and merging some groups did maintain clear and persistent identities across time. Some of that persistence I still find elusive to explain.
In connection to what you discuss, I would say that Agent J J Saville's concept of the Head Bands, set out in reports from Red Cloud Agency in the 1873-75 timeslot, corresponds to what I've in the past alluded to as Oglala proper. I was trying to use it in a somewhat wider sense than 'True' Oglala. But maybe it was misleading -- to me, as well as anyone else. Examining Saville's definition Head Bands (note plural) seems to embrace
Bad Face Loafer Payabya Spleen possibly Hunkpatila
The meaning would seem to me to refer to the places (plural) at the head of the tribal camp circle, i.e the 'horns'.
On reflection I'm sure that Agt Saville's reference to the "Head Bands" in a report of November 1874 refers to the four bands located at each side of the camp entrance in the Walker diagram: Spleen and Payabya, on the north side; and Loafer and Bad Face, on the south side. In his annual report for 1875, printed at p. 250 of the Annual Report of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Saville lists the "Ogallallas [i.e. the same as the Head Bands of his earlier report], Kiocsies, Onkapas [i.e. Oyuhpe], and Wazazies". This list then can be seen to correspond to the camp circle recorded by Dr Walker.
Yes, I see what you mean regarding "Head Bands". Referring to a head of a camp (hunkpa). First I understood "head band" to mean "main band". But now I see it is wrong.
In your upcoming book, I hope to see you add together 2 things which you have shown us here on this website. 1. your list of oshpaye - tiyoshpaye - wicoti with the names of headmen at various times. For example your post on May 11, 2017 in this thread, for the year 1804. Not in the format of a text, like in your "Treaty of 1825" article, but as here as a list (or a table or a spreadsheat). 2. Drawings made by you and your son of Oglala sacred hoop at different times.
If I may, I would like to suggest that you imporove your drawings of Oglala sacred hoop as follows: 1. Put on the drawings the names of each wicoti within each tiyospaye 2. Put on the drawings names of the chief of each wicoti. 3. Put on the drawings a number for each tiyoshpaye as the numbers in your text accompanying your drawings.
This together is VERY helpful to visiulize and understand the structure and development of the Oglala sacred hoop.
Here is one example of what I have learned when I added your lists + your drawings. Through most of 1800s it was always the same 6 wicoti which camped at the northern horn (hunkpa) of the Oglala sacred hoop. We know these wicoti under differet tiyoshpaye names. Which at the surface seems confusing. But if you look at the wicoti level, then it becomes simple. These wicoti made up the so called Shiyo oshpaye in 1804.
These were the following wicoti: 1. Tiyochesli (Defecates in Lodge) 2. Wotanyeya (Never Misses) 3. Ptehinchala Sapa (Black Calf) 4. Itokaga oyate (Southern Nation) 5. Shiyo (Sharptail Groose) 6. Skokpa (Hollowed-out)
wicoti no. 1 (Tiyochesli) seems to have always formed a separate tiyoshpaye during 1800s. But the rest of the wicoti blend together in various ways.
In 1804: wicoti no. 2+3+4 formed Payabya tiyoshpaye wicoti no. 5+6 formed Shiyo tiyoshpaye
In 1825 wicoti no. 2+3+4+5+6 were all together in Payabya tiyoshpaye.
Later we get another mix or arrangements of the same bunch of wicoti with the result of a new tiyoshpaye, i.e. Tapislecha (but we are still talking about the same bunch of tiyoshpaye wicoti). In 1845: wicoti no. 4+6 formed Tapislecha tiyoshpaye wicoti no. 2+3 formed Payabya tiyoshpaye wicoti no. 5 had "dissolved" into Bad Face
And as you once mentioned, wicoti no. 3 probably moved over to Tapislecha from Payabya. So in 1860 we get another mix: wicoti no. 2 formed Payabya wicoti no. 3+4+6 formed Tapislecha
So on the paper, there is much going on around the northern horn, tiyoshpaye going and coming. But in reality everyting was quiet, it was always the same bunch of 5-6 wicoti. This I did not notice untill I put together your list + your drawings. But I hope to see this used at full blast in your upcoming book.
The problem regarding the term Oglala proper is its "time variance", that is it means different things at different times. In 1804 Oglala proper was made up of 11 wicoti forming 4 tiyoshpaye (Hunkpatila, Bad Speakers, Bear People and Kiyuksa). After the killing of Bull Bear in 1841, Oglala proper is without 4 Kiyuksa wicoti + 1-2 other wicoti but with added 3-5 wicoti from Payabya-Shiyo maximal band. Around 1851, Oglala proper divides into two parts: Red Cloud faction vs. Old Man Afraid faction. And after 1868 Old Man Afraid faction splits up ! So it is easy to get confused in naming all these factions ! They really and literally scattered each other !
It would be interesting to learn how the term Oglala evolved to True Oglala (either here or in your upcoming book). Starting with the event when the 2 brothers argued and scattered dust at each other. With the result that the term Oglala was originally coined to 1-3 wicoti. Over decades, the term Oglala evolved to True Oglala, with the result that the term True Oglala was applied to 4-6 wicoti which first made up 1 tiyoshpaye and later on 2 tiyoshapye. Later on True Oglala divided and aligned with other factions within Oglala and then formed new alliances and then splitted and splitted again ! With the result of chaos of many names of oshpaye, tiyoshpaye and wicoti and all mixed up and mixed in various ways at various times in reaction to various events in Lakota society ! The solution: Your drawings of the Oglala sacred hoops at various time + your lists of oshpaye-tiyoshpaye-wicoti-names of headmen at various time + your accompanying text.
We can use the term Oglala Proper, but only for a certain period. At least from 1804, where we have a reference to “O-kan-dan-das” which we can say is Oglala proper. I am not sure how far back in time we can extend this term for the oshpaye "O-kan-dan-das" = Oglala proper (as opposite to the oshpaye Shiyo-Payabya). You are in a better position to determine that. But for how long time after 1804 is a question. There are several possible milestones: 1834 when Yellow Eagle invited Old Man Afraid from Payabya to Hunkpatia. It depends on how many lodges Old Man Afraid brought with him to Hunkpatila from Payabya. 1835 when Oyuhpe returned to Oglala changleska (sacred hoop) 1838 when Standing Bull took his thiwáhe or wicoti (which was it ?) from Red Banner (Hunkpatila) and went to Kiyuksa tiyoshpaye (or Kuhinyan tiyoshpaye ?) 1841 when Bull Bear was killed at Chugwater Creek 1842 when Oglalas had "formally" polarized into Bull Bear people vs. Smoke people
That translates to somewhere between 1804-1834 and 1804-1842 for the term Oglala Proper. After that we have to coin another terms for the various Oglala factions.
No matter wheather Old Man Afraid brought with him few or many lodges from Payabya to Hunkpatila in 1834. I feel like it was Old Man Afraid who was the "glue" when Smoke faction gained strength when Payabya-Shiyo oshpaye aligned with the Smoke faction after the killing of Bull Bear. So it seems it was Old Man Afraid who secured Payabya and Hunkpatila support to Smoke faction. So that is an important milestone, but not the only one.