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Post by Dietmar on May 16, 2017 10:07:48 GMT -5
Fascinating stuff!
Kingsley, please keep us posted about your new article. Thanks.
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Post by hreinn on May 16, 2017 16:28:55 GMT -5
Kingsley, thanks for sharing this new and detailed information. Thanks also to your Oglala source(s).
What about Tapislecha ? When did Tapislecha (Spleen) came into existence ? Who was/were Tapislecha first leader/leaders ? Is it known why Tapislecha was established ?
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Post by kingsleybray on May 17, 2017 16:38:37 GMT -5
hreinn, I am putting final details together on the formation of the Tapislecha (Spleen) band. But it formed in the 1845-60 period, weaving together two sub-bands or wicoti into a new band --- the Skokpa, whose ultimate origins lay with the Minisala band; and the Itokaga oyate (Southern Nation) sub-band of Payabya. Later at Pine Ridge, the Skokpa descendants settled with Yellow Bear southeast of Kyle; while the Southern Nation descendants (now renamed Ce-huhaton, Kettle with Legs) settled at modern Calico community.Both these communities were known, collectively and singly, as Tapislecha.
You can see continuity back to those now forgotten bands, Shiyo and Minisala (Red Water). Hence George Hyde's astute characterisation of the Spleen tiyospaye as "An old band, now strong again."
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Post by grigoryev on May 17, 2017 17:12:38 GMT -5
Tiyochesli
After 1835, part of Shiyo moved to Brule. In 1855 Stabber is mentioned among Wazhazha. It is possible that this is the tiyoshpaye Tiyochesli went to Brule and began to live with Wazhazha
Refuse to Move Camp, Iglakatekhila
Refuse to Move Camp in 1835 were among the sub-bands of True Oglala, who did not go south along with Bull Bear. As Kingsley reported, they were one of the sub-band Wazhazha. And in 1835 were listed among True Oglala. Therefore, they most likely came along with one of the waves of Kukhinyan.
Earth Eater, Maka Yuta
What is known about this sub-band of True Oglala? What is known about the family Earth Eater?
Red Rattle, Wagmuha Luta
About Yellow Eagle it is known that in 1850 he headed the sub-band Red Lodge, Tishayaote. Is it the same sub-group or new tiyoshpaye emerging from Red Rattle? About the Yellow Eagle family I would like to know more. On the one hand, he is always mentioned as one of the most important chiefs of Hunkapatilla, on the other side there is no data about the family. How many wives, how many children, etc.
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Post by hreinn on May 18, 2017 19:23:35 GMT -5
Thanks Kingsley. It will be very interesting to read the results of the cooperation between you and the Lakotas.
Interesting to see how late Tapislecha was formed.
Interesting to see the dynamic band formation among the Lakotas. With names of the pertinent bands, going back some centuries.
Interesting to see that the 2 threads among Tapislecha were still very much aware of their origin in the early reservation era. When Tapislecha technically split into 2. I wonder if that was due to some internal disagreement or just due to family connections. As I take it, bands more or less sticked together (lived in the same area) during the early reservation era. So Tapislecha was perhaps unusal in their splitting. But that is perhaps a misunderstanding.
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Post by hreinn on May 26, 2017 15:27:36 GMT -5
Kingsley:
We have 3 names or phrases: 1. Oglala Proper 2. True Oglala 3. Original Oglala
In your original post of this thread from May 13, 2013. True Oglala is listed as one of several tiyoshpaye among Oglala Proper oshpaye. But from your latest and most detailed writing about the structure of Oglala oyate in ca. 1804 in a post on May 11, 2017, which you said "supersedes all previous speculations". There is no mention of True Oglala (except in a footnote about Bad Wound). And those wicoti which were listed as True Oglala in 2013, are now "classified" in another way or missing in your "classification" in 2017.
In view of your new knowledge. Do all these 3 names (phrases) listed above, describe the same group of people ? or 2 or 3 different groups ? on 2 or 3 levels (oshpaye, tiyoshpaye, wicoti) ? How are these names written in Lakota ? I know True Oglala is written as Oglala hca (Oglála ȟča). But what about the others ? During the buffalo times, did Lakotas used these names ? Or are these names later inventions ? During the buffalo times, did Lakotas only use the name Oglala (not Oglala Proper nor True Oglala nor Original Oglala) ? Was the name True Oglala coined later than 1804 or out of date in 1804 ?
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Post by grigoryev on Jun 21, 2017 16:21:42 GMT -5
The question concerns Skokpa. Sits in Wallow mentioned here is the father of Calfskin Robe. And who is First Stone Walking? Is not he the father of Slow Bear? Is there anything else known about these two leaders of the early 19th century
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Post by grigoryev on Jun 21, 2017 16:31:01 GMT -5
Kiyaksa ii (headman Short-Haired Bear) Later, this Tiyoshpaye will be led by Two Crow and his brothers - Poor Elk, Broken Arm, Lone Bull. Who was their father? Short-Haired Bear? Or was he their uncle?
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Post by kingsleybray on Jun 21, 2017 16:50:44 GMT -5
at the moment I dont know. Short Haired Bear was a headman about 1800. His son Crazy Bear succeeded him in 1818. Where the family went after that I'm not sure. But there is a connection, both Crazy Bear and Two Crows were related to the Sitting Bear-American Horse family. So maybe the line is there . . . will try to find out more.
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Post by kingsleybray on Jun 21, 2017 16:54:26 GMT -5
grigoryev wrote: "The question concerns Skokpa. Sits in Wallow mentioned here is the father of Calfskin Robe. And who is First Stone Walking? Is not he the father of Slow Bear?" Read more: amertribes.proboards.com/thread/1823/oglala-band-structure?page=10#ixzz4kfzKTj7cFirst Stone Walking was one of the headmen when Skokpa joined the Oglala - purportedly the year was 1789. I asked which one of the named headmen came down in family line to the Black Hawk - Pawnee Killer - Yellow Bear cluster, and was told First Stone Walking. But I don't know the exact relationship.
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Post by grigoryev on Jun 24, 2017 4:17:56 GMT -5
Hello, Kingsley. Owl Wing, Hupahu Hinhan What is known about this sub-bands of Hunkpatilla? Did Owl Wing joint to Oyukhpe with Ghost Boy or mixed with other sub-bands Hunkpatilla? Who led this sub-band after White Owl (Hinhan Ska) - his sons or Ghost Boy? If the entire subgroup was joint, then why did not it form a separate sub-band of Oyuhpe, but joined Oyuhpe-hcka?
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Post by grigoryev on Jun 27, 2017 3:06:25 GMT -5
Hello In the latest version of distribution Oglala 1804 mention a sub-band Kiyaksa II, headman Short Hair Bear. In the Chugwater 1841 kills man named Short Bear. Is it the same person or is it his relative (son, brother, nephew)?
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Post by kakarns on Feb 25, 2018 20:28:07 GMT -5
grigoryev --- Skokpa, the founding wicoti of the Spleen band: was itself ultimately derived from the Minisala grouping. As such it was associated with the Brule (Sicangu) tribal division of the Lakota. In the late 18th c. it realigned to the Shiyo band, which is where we find it in the 1804 Oglala camp circle. Yellow Leggings, Bad Face wicoti headman in the early 19th c. -- was the father of Brave Bear and so the paternal grandfather of George Sword and Afraid of Bear. I don't know how he was, or if he was, related to Fast Whirlwind. Unfortunately my Oglala sources do not shed any new light on Iron Hatchet's role in the formation or re-founding of the Payabya band. They are familiar with Iron Hatchet, aka Black Bird, as a brother of Bull Bear, but are unaware of his Payabya connections. What has been made clear to me is that Payabya was an old band, long predating the 19th c. At the 1804 timeframe the Man Afraid of His Horse family was living with the Kuhinyan band which had left the Oglala circle and was shifting btw the Oglalas and the Sicangus. It returned to the Oglala hoop in 1818. Also, grigoryev, some of your reconstructions of Lakota band names are wrong: I have reposted my message to include the Lakota names. Later this year, Nebraska History nagazine is publishing my article on the Oglalas and the Atkinson-O'Fallon Treaty, which will include a full presentation of the 1825 Oglala camp circle. Hello Kingsley - In your statement here you mention a Iron Hachet aka Black Bird. Would you happen to know the name or, names of any of his wives ? One of Charging Eagle's wives was named; Paints Herself Yellow b. 1842. A document I have, states her parents were; Father = Black Bird and Mother = Iron Comes Out Thanks, kakarns
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Post by frenchman on Feb 26, 2018 10:17:21 GMT -5
Greetings from France , I had read the last post of Kakarns who spoke of a man called Charging Eagle and I would like to learn more about this man ( who is he , his band , his kindred and his history ) ! Thank you !
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Post by kakarns on Feb 27, 2018 19:10:57 GMT -5
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