tatanka
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Post by tatanka on Jul 5, 2008 8:34:24 GMT -5
I have been trying without success to find a biography of Lame Deer, who was killed by Nelson Miles' troops in 1877. Can anyone tell me of his life?
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Post by crawman on Jul 6, 2008 1:06:14 GMT -5
The only help I can give is to refer you to a book called 'Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions" which is his grandsons bio.Its quite a good book but was written in about 1970 so I don't know if its still in print........PTL ...craw
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tatanka
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Post by tatanka on Jul 6, 2008 2:59:55 GMT -5
I have read the book you mention, crawman. He doesn't say much about his grandfather. There is a novel by Terry C Johnston called Ashes of Heaven which gives an account of Lame Deers' fight and death but like most novels it's probably mostly conjecture. I'll keep looking. Thanks for that anyway, mikola.
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clw
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Post by clw on Jul 6, 2008 9:03:43 GMT -5
I've looked for information on this man myself, but have found very little. Tatanka, some of the best contemporary Lakota historians come here so maybe they'll help us. Ephraim, Kingsley and all the rest -- what DO we know?
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tatanka
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Post by tatanka on Jul 6, 2008 13:28:11 GMT -5
Thanks again,friend. The reason I am so interested is that he was one of the last "hold-outs"preferring to live the old free way of life rather than be confined to a reservation. He must have been a figure of great respect to persuade others to stay out with him. It would be very interesting to see just what kind of man he was.
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hb35
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Post by hb35 on Jul 8, 2008 21:38:09 GMT -5
I have a semi-related question concerning Lame Deer. I believe I have seen in several places that a Cheyenne scout named Ice scalped Lame Deer in 1877.
Can this be the same Ice that was a strong supporter of Crazy Horse right up till this time??
Kingsley, in his book on Crazy Horse, states that Little Wolf and some Cheyennes became angry with the Lakotas under Crazy Horse, but the story of Ice just seems strange to me. Anyone have any info? Maybe this needs its own thread. Thanks.
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tatanka
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Post by tatanka on Jul 9, 2008 6:56:21 GMT -5
The information I have is that it was White Bull who scalped both Lame Deer and his nephew Iron Star.
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hb35
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Post by hb35 on Jul 9, 2008 21:49:56 GMT -5
It may be mistaken identity, I searched for where I saw it. Multiple names again, White Bull aka Ice... there is also an Ice Bear mentioned and I found a pic with a White Bull and Ice Bear ogether (I don't see how to attach the image), so now I'm even more confused. The following is from a listing of Cheyenne participants. ..."White Bull, Also called Ice ; Northern Cheyenne, born 1837, son of Black Moccasin ; a warrior chief, he led warriors against Custer ; his son Noisy Walking died of wounds received in the battle ; surrendered with Two Moon's band at Fort Keogh in April 1877, and was the first Cheyenne enlisted as a scout for General Miles; he scalped Lame Deer, the Minneconjou Sioux Chief, after he had been shot by General Miles' troops May 7, 1877 in an attack on their village ; later the most famous Northern Cheyenne medicine man and Sun Dance priest ; living 1910 " [/img]
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hb35
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Post by hb35 on Jul 9, 2008 22:07:21 GMT -5
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tatanka
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Post by tatanka on Jul 10, 2008 15:03:53 GMT -5
Was the Ice you referred to as a supporter of Crazy Horse Lakota or Cheyenne? I'm asking because Miles' scouts were all Cheyenne. You're right. It is confusing.
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hb35
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Post by hb35 on Jul 10, 2008 20:25:08 GMT -5
I have read he was Cheyenne. I think in Bray's Crazy Horse, he refers to Ice and Two Moons as being the leaders of a Cheyenne faction supportive of Crazy Horse, even after the LBH. That's why I couldn't picture him turning on Lame Deer so quickly, not just scouting against, but scalping?! Maybe It still is a mistake.
It always seemed odd to me how the Cheyennes and Lakotas would scout against their own, but after reading Kingsley's book and his article about the flight North, I am begining to see the complexity of the situation.
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Post by grahamew on Jul 11, 2008 3:01:41 GMT -5
Weren't there Cheyennes with Lame Deer? White Hawk's band?
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tatanka
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Post by tatanka on Jul 11, 2008 6:35:24 GMT -5
You may well be right about White Hawk. I hadn't heard of any Cheyenne being with Lame Deer but then details of the fight are quite sketchy. It's difficult for us to understand why these Indians volunteered to fight against their own kind but I think there are several possible reasons. The attraction of a uniform and a pony and gun because they would have to hand in their weapons and ponies when they surrendered. Perhaps to get away from the inactivity and boredom of agency life. Or perhaps it was because of their warrior tradition. A chance to live again the old life even briefly, a chance to win honours and scalps and booty, a chance perhaps to feel like a warrior again.
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Post by grahamew on Jul 11, 2008 6:42:58 GMT -5
If he wasn't with him, I'm sure his band elected to stay out after the Crazy Horse group surrendered.
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tatanka
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Post by tatanka on Jul 13, 2008 5:56:42 GMT -5
I have read that Lame Deers' band joined Crazy Horse's band sometime after the LBH. There was also a band of Cheyenne present (White Hawk?) But Lame Deer elected to stay out after Crazy Horse indicated he was going to surrender. I don't know if the Cheyenne stayed with him.
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