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Post by pohanka on Jul 6, 2008 17:26:46 GMT -5
There has been much debate, over the years, which center upon Neihardt's interpretations of Black Elk's system of beliefs. How much of the written book can be attributed to the great visionary versus the insertion of Neihardt's personal beliefs. One may never know. What is important is the beauty of the final product and the creation of a spiritual gateway into the subliminal consciousness of Indian religion. Therein lies the true value of this work.
The sacred hoop of the Lakota has been shattered by the harsh, violent , and proposed "divine" injunction privy only to the alleged "chosen" ones exemplified by the following:
"Again, we come to the great Law of right. the White race stood upon this undeveloped continent ready and willing to execute the Divine injunction, to replenish the earth and subdue it....The Indian races were in the wrongful possession of a continent required by the superior right of the White man." Charles Bryant
Thus the sacred hoop of the Lakota (Hunkpapa, Oglala, Minneconjou, Brule, blackfeet, Two Kettle, and Sans Arcs)were vanquished by the harsh realities of the new god,science,which produced weaponry to subdue they who did not understand the mind-set of the "Wasichus."
A mind-set that endowed the believer with the false supposition that the land could be owned, fenced off, and sold. What a foolish thought, the land could no more be brought and sold than the sky! It is this Wasichu manifesto that has been emblazoned in the smog choked sky of our cities and, the slow but certain decline and ebb of life giving greenery.
Before the American cavalry had encountered the Sioux, Black Elk had a prophetic vision of the terrible future of his tribe. it was a vision of what he called the "hoop" of the Nation. However, his hoop was one of many hoops representing all the earth's Nations working in concert. When the holy hoops failed to work in unison, chaos prevails.
When one Nation, one People, subdue another the gates of hell are flung open with a blood curling bang.
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clw
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Post by clw on Jul 6, 2008 19:47:13 GMT -5
Oh, please. Get over yourself.
"a spiritual gateway into the subliminal consciousness of Indian religion"?! Like that was what Black Elk intended.
Sorry Diane and Deimar, but stuff like this makes me cuckoo.
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Post by biggordie on Jul 6, 2008 23:50:44 GMT -5
According to DeMallie's introduction to The Sixth Grandfather, Black Elk was born in December, 1863, which would be well after the Sioux and the U.S. Army had met one another. Neihardt interviewed him in 1931 and 1944 [and perhaps in 1929 and 1932]. Black Elk was an old man even at the earliest interview date, and had been exposed for many years to Catholic teachings, which he seemed to accept, with certain revisions to suit his Lakota heritage, culture and religion - much as native peoples around the world have done, especially in Mexico and the Phillipines, and maybe Haiti as well.
Neihardt was principally a poet, by calling and by inclination, and there is no doubt that his poetical bent colored his writings. As with any white account of interviews with First Nations people, there will always be a question of how much is the interviewer and how much the interviewee - this might well be an enlarged question when the white is a poet [where poetic license might be more prominent than otherwise], rather than a more pedantic historian or ethnographer.
There is enough coloration and interpretation to go around, without adding more to the mix.
Gordie
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tatanka
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Live every day like there was no tomorrow
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Post by tatanka on Jul 7, 2008 6:34:39 GMT -5
I think "Land of the Spotted Eagle" by Luther Standing Bear is an excellent reference concerning Lakota society, customs and spirituality.
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clw
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Post by clw on Jul 7, 2008 11:22:17 GMT -5
Gordie ~
You said what I was too annoyed to say and better than I would have anyway. Thank you, dear.
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Post by pohanka on Jul 7, 2008 13:58:30 GMT -5
"When I first met Black Elk he was almost blind. Recently he has become totally so, a fact of which he informed me quite casually and apparently without sense of affliction. Is he not thus released from "the darkness of the eyes," and so a little nearer to his visioned world of reality?
Black Elk is illiterate; but thoughtful readers will allow that he is none the less educated man in the fine sense of a term that sometimes seems to have lost its vital meaning for us in this excessively progressive age. For how may an educated man be described correctly, save by saying that in his consciousness racial experience has been recapitulated to build a rich personality? And surely in Black Elk we find the culture of his people in full flower." John G. Neihardt
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Post by pohanka on Jul 7, 2008 14:10:30 GMT -5
According to DeMallie's introduction to The Sixth Grandfather, Black Elk was born in December, 1863, which would be well after the Sioux and the U.S. Army had met one another. There is enough coloration and interpretation to go around, without adding more to the mix. Gordie The Black Elk experience I referred to occurred when he was a young Sioux boy around nine years of age. It is virtually impossible to discuss the spirit without "coloration and interpretation." Statistical data certainly has its place, in the scheme of things, also. Is there not room for all?
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clw
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Post by clw on Jul 7, 2008 15:16:33 GMT -5
Waslo'lyesni. Tuwa kakesa!
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Post by pohanka on Jul 7, 2008 18:54:46 GMT -5
I have a sneaky suspicion that I have been the recipient of a foul directive in another language. How terribly sad and unnecessary.
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Wakalapi
Junior Member
Hau, Yalowan oyakihi hwo?
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Post by Wakalapi on Jul 9, 2008 17:12:58 GMT -5
Hau pohanka,
FYI, the words above your post is Lakotaiyapi. It's more of a statement of strong disagreement. Keep posting, as this board has much positive potential.
Wakalapi
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jul 9, 2008 21:27:22 GMT -5
Sorry Diane and Deimar, but stuff like this makes me cuckoo. You never need to apologize to me. You are very well respected. Diane P.S. You have not yet become cuckoo. Believe me, I know cuckoo.
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clw
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Post by clw on Jul 10, 2008 9:15:20 GMT -5
P.S. You have not yet become cuckoo. Believe me, I know cuckoo. ;D That point is certainly well taken. Considering some of the things I've seen you have to deal with, your admin abilities are stellar. Inevitably, there will be times here when the context of things may lead to references to Lakota spiritual beliefs. When that occurs, it's very important (at least to me) that we don't start pontificating about things we lack the understanding to discuss in the kind of depth Pohanka thinks she possesses. The only people here who have that right are our Lakota friends. I doubt Pohanka is one, as she not only didn't understand what I said, she didn't even recognize the language I used was Lakota. So the answer to that question is "absolutely not". IMHO. I see no category here that invites any such discussion. As it should be.
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Post by ladonna on Jul 10, 2008 13:25:01 GMT -5
As a Lakota and Dakota I would object to our belief spoke about on line. Black Elk was a christian which people tend to forget. he was also Ogala so he talked only for the Oglala not the Lakotas. I love to talk about the history of our people that is exciting enough.
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Post by miyelo on Jul 10, 2008 17:12:03 GMT -5
ladonna is right.
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tatanka
Junior Member
Live every day like there was no tomorrow
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Post by tatanka on Jul 11, 2008 9:55:02 GMT -5
There is so much more to talk about in this forum.
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