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Post by carlo on Jun 20, 2012 17:20:15 GMT -5
An intriguing side note to this episode:
On September 23rd 1858, Twiss reports that he has spoken to three "principle men" from the Crows. Who can he be talking about? It is clear from Schmidt's diary that the Crow headmen had not yet been to Deer Creek, and the "three forerunners" actually left for Deer Creek on that same day (23rd), so the only ones he would have talked to were the four Crows who had gone to Deer Creek with Twiss' two white messengers. So, either the four (or three of the four) were actually "principle men" and possibly spoke for the headmen by promising Twiss the return of the horses, or Twiss based his report on initial information by his two messengers who talked to the headmen in the Crow camps -- if the latter, then Twiss clearly embellished his report to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs by stating he already spoke to the headmen, when in truth he did not speak to them until October 2nd, almost two weeks after his report.
Either way, it is quite frustrating that the most interesting part from October 2nd onwards is missing from the Schmidt diary. It would have answered a few outstanding question I presume...
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Post by kingsleybray on Jun 21, 2012 3:35:36 GMT -5
Do we happen to know the names of the two tribes encountered by Schmidt at Deer Creek; are they Lakota sub-bands, Cheyenne? Isaoschbusche BareaschubgioRead more: amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=crow&action=display&thread=1506&page=2#ixzz1yPnMb5UzCarlo the Schmidt renderings of tribal names: his first is the Crow name for the Cheyennes, Isapsuse, meaning striped robes people. The second denotes the Lakota, the name today rendered Akpareashupasko, but cf. Hayden's 1850's version barashu-gi-o, meaning Cut-Throats. I don't understand what distinction should be made between that name and Schmidt's 'Makota'.
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Post by carlo on Jun 21, 2012 14:13:45 GMT -5
Ah yes, of course! I did check Curtis 'Apsaroke' p.180, but for some reason seem to have completely overlooked Cheyenne; I must admit I did not see the similarity for Sioux without Hayden's version to compare. Thanks Kingsley.
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Post by carlo on Jul 22, 2012 16:11:27 GMT -5
Kingsley,
Back to the newspaper sources in my post #13; I did some additional digging and found that (in addition to the ones already named) many local, smaller newspapers across the US printed the exact lines as quoted. Ofcourse, back then small newspapers got much of their nationwide information from other newspapers closer to the source of the story, and just copied them word for word.
Some large circulation newspapers that also ran the previously quoted lines are: The Weekly (New York) Herald, August 22 Daily National (Washington, DC) Intelligencer, August 15 The (Philadelphia) Press, August 17
In addition, the Missouri (St. Louis) Republican, a known source of western topics for other newspapers, has in December 28, 1857: "There has been some hard fighting on the plains the past fall and summer, between the different tribes of Indians; and eighty lodges of the Crows had been nearly exterminated by the Minnecanjou tribe (Sioux) in one battle." (This could be Long Soldier's/He Dog's Oglala expedition.)
Carlo
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Post by carlo on Sept 27, 2012 4:02:24 GMT -5
Kingsley, There is evidence to support the fact that the Kicked In The Bellies were also already quite aggressive in 1858. They were the leading Crow band in the Rainy Buttes Battle against the Hunkpapa (which was in 1858, not in 1859) and when one of their headman, First Feather Of The Tail, was subsequently killed later in the year by a combined Lakota-Cheyenne war party, in the winter the Kicked In The Bellies successfully attacked the Lakota-Cheyenne camp in revenge. (I suspect these Lakota were Oglala.) -- see Curtis, Vol.4, p.105. To me it seems the only ones who were still actively holding on to the truce in 1858 were the Miniconjou under Lone Horn and Black Shield. The Kicked In The Bellies may have still joined in the conversations to get the truce back on track, but their actions show that they already had other plans. Thoughts? Carlo
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Post by kingsleybray on Sept 28, 2012 6:12:09 GMT -5
Carlo,
excuse me but I missed your July 22 message until now. That is a fascinating detail from the Missouri Republican. I would love to know more!
I shall look again at Curtis's Crow volume. there is great information in there. Do you have details on Black Shield in 1858?
Kingsley
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Post by carlo on Sept 28, 2012 7:03:30 GMT -5
No more details on Black Shield I'm afraid, I inserted his name because we know he left the peace faction when he initiated the expedition against the Crows after his sons were killed in 1859. In doing research on Lakota-Crow fights in this period, I found that the Miniconjou were conspicuously quiet, so Black Shield would have been among those in 1858.
Re. the newspaper piece, I sent you a PM.
Carlo
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Post by carlo on Jan 29, 2013 8:57:01 GMT -5
Kingsley, I found one more:
Schimeschibe: Fat Buffalo Shoulders, River Crow.
This is actually one of the few names Schmidt does translate, see p185. Schmidt shared his lodge from Sept. 15, during the trek to Deer Creek.
Carlo
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Post by kingsleybray on Jan 29, 2013 9:06:11 GMT -5
thanks, Carlo. Does this man turn up in later accounts?
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Post by carlo on Jan 29, 2013 10:11:46 GMT -5
Never read about him elsewhere I'm afraid; will keep him in mind going forward.
This was the man who's horses were stolen on September 17. I do suspect this was not an "important man", although I might be wrong of course.
As you know, the River Crows declined to join the Deer Creek travelers. Schimeschibe may have been sent along as a protector of sorts for Schmidt, who until then was staying in the River Crow camp. Three other River Crow men joined after all on September 16, the second day. These were Antischischobsch, Arachtschiamusch, and Dagbizagesch.
Carlo
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Post by carlo on Jan 29, 2013 10:35:38 GMT -5
So, we now have:
Dagbizehischisch: Red Bear / Sits On Edge Of Fortification, Mountain Crow (chief) Dagbizaschusch: Bear's Head, River Crow (chief) Arazieisa: Big Shadow / Big Robber, Kicked In The Bellies (chief)
Schikjuquapeze: Boy Chief Zizabusch: Rotten Tail / Twines His Horse's Tail, River Crow Ischuretsch: White Temple / Iron Bull, Mountain Crow (or Kicked In The Bellies) Antischischobsch: Four Dancers, River Crow Schimeschibe: Fat Buffalo Shoulder, River Crow
Itschitascke: ... Jzinigasche: ... Dagbizeguresch: Bear ... Apehope: ... Arachtschiamusch: ..., River Crow Dagbizagesch: Bear ... , River Crow
Next to Black Foot, I also expected First Feather Of The Tail (KitB chief, died 1858) to be part of the list, but I don't think I have seen his name in Crow anywhere.
Carlo
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Post by kingsleybray on Jan 29, 2013 10:50:17 GMT -5
Any more details on First Feather of the Tail? Could this be another name for Big Robber? - also a Kicked in the Bellies chief who was killed in 1858.
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Post by carlo on Jan 29, 2013 11:04:50 GMT -5
I don't believe so, as Hunts To Die in Curtis relates stories about Big Shadow and he also mentions FFOTT. I doubt he wouldn't call him by his same name to Curtis.
He also suggests FFOTT was killed, together with another man, late in 1858 by Lakotas & Cheyennes, whereas Big Shadow was killed with 30 others in the summer. As discussed earlier, I personally believe he was killed by either Shoshones or Blackfeet, not Lakotas.
Carlo
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Post by carlo on Jan 29, 2013 11:14:17 GMT -5
It seems First Feather Of The Tail was the successor of Big Shadow, as Hunts To Die calls him "The Kick Belly band's leader". His leadership was obviously very brief, and Black Foot would have taken over from him. At least that's how I read it. Because it was so brief, many historians of the Crows call Black Foot the successor of Big Shadow, which in essence he was. Carlo
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Post by kingsleybray on Jan 29, 2013 15:32:47 GMT -5
archive.org/details/contributionstohvol10hist1940richcarlo, I don't know if we've talked about this source - but the Fort Sarpy journal from 1856 is a valuable record of contemporary Crow affairs. Good points on Hunts to Die's information given to ES Curtis. First Feather of the Tail seems to be another chief, distinct from Big Robber.
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