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Post by rodthomas on Feb 12, 2020 12:13:53 GMT -5
Shan, found the discussion finally...I think the answers to all the questions/comments about the deep ravine incident and why is to read Standing Bear's testimony. He tells exactly what he saw and what others confirmed for him as he developed his paintings. At least that is what I took away from those discussions. Hope this helps.
I also replied earlier but it didn't take. Yes, I'm sure they'll want a fee of some sort, especially if you want enlargements which they normally don't have. They also usually have a clause that no enlargements may be made although they might relent in that if you ask. If they don't have, they'll want payment for a phtotographer, etc.
Three new pieces - Kicking Bear, Standing Bear, and White Bird.
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Post by shan on Feb 12, 2020 13:06:19 GMT -5
Rod, I agree, but I find that on both the LBH boards that there's a great reluctance to take the Indian art work seriously, in fact I get the distinct impression that a lot of posters can't even be bother to look, let alone evaluate them.
Although I should have been getting on with other things, I've spent today reading through your book again and what a pleasure its been. As a side issue, I was interested in the slight differences in the two sets of White Bulls drawings. He's very consistent in depicting his own apparel and the colour of his horse, but I wonder why he insists, as do many other Indian artist, in showing the soldiers wearing forage caps?
So, new work by the three men that you mentioned. So where, or when, can we get to see them, I'm frothing at the bit?
Shan
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Post by rodthomas on Feb 12, 2020 13:33:12 GMT -5
Shan, thanks and I agree wholeheartedly...just like they have never really taken the time to understand and use the warrior narratives. I frankly chalk it up to bias - the worst kind - and reluctance to use so that the "pet theories" are not unseated. That may be a mite harsh but my experience is that some "serious" historians still contend the art is cartoonish and the narratives contrived. Argh.
The portrayal of soldiers follows what I and others feel is a standard way to portray them so as to not mistake who the antagonists were. I think that is the case in White Bull's depictions.
I have considered an update revision to Rubbing Out Long Hair for both images and verbiage. I've learned lots in the decade since it was published and it should be more "correct" shall we say. Financially, it would cost twice as much to do the redo than the original and that was costly. I'll have to continue to work on how. Once I have the images I need ($$$) I might be able to post them here with permissions. That's the other aspect of all this...permissions are not as easily obtained (cultural considerations and all by the holders) as they were a decade ago. In some cases, tribal consent must also be obtained. I am always very careful and respectful and folks know that. Generally, if the image has been commercially published before there is little if any reluctance but I always check.
Thank you for your kind words about the book...a labor of love.
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Post by shan on Apr 30, 2021 17:29:45 GMT -5
Rod,
Just a quick point, I was looking at a reproduction of one of Standing Bulls paintings of the battle, the one in the Karl May museum in Germany, and although the repro, wasn't good, I noticed something that I hadn't seen in the other three.
Just to the left, and slightly above the mounted riders who are fleeing off to the right, two indians are engaged in a hand to hand fight with a soldier wearing what looks like a buckskin jacket, and buckskin trousers. The Indian in the warbonnet wealds a knife, and the soldier is firing a pistol at him. Now I wonder if this is a depiction of the personal encounter that White Bull talks of towards the end of the battle, a close encounter in which he needed a little help from a friend.
Now I know the drawings that White Bull himself made of the battle, drawings in which he's fairly consistent in depicting how he was dressed that day, and there's no sign of a warbonnet, or indeed of him being stripped to his breech cloth in any of those. But then having said that, this is a painting that's been made by another Indian, someone who may not have known how he was was dressed that day. Anyways, I wonder if you noticed this detail yourself?
I have your book Rubbing out long hair, and refer to it constantly. Unfortunately my eyesight is getting worse by the minute, and whilst I know you would have loved to have been able to show much bigger versions of the pictures, so I find it difficult picking out detail now even with a magnifying glass. Do you know of any bigger versions of these paintings that online, versions one could enlarge? I'm sure I've asked that before, so forgive me.
Good luck with the recent book.
Bluehorse { David Shanahan}
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Post by rodthomas on May 1, 2021 11:01:02 GMT -5
Hi David and great to hear from you. Hopefully all is well there. Standing Bear's process centered around his depiction of an event or person, then he and his friends and even the portrayed individual himself, would sit around the kitchen table in Standing Bear's house and go over the depictions. While fighting garb was probably different, the recognition of the individual in a collective setting/remembrance most likely showed him/them in recognizable dress.
The best way to find out if there are images of high resolution is to contact the holders directly. In the past, I've asked for high resolution for research and usually got them without fee. Nowadays, pandemic and all, that may have changed. I'd love to put the book online but the cost of doing that is beyond me at this time. Sorry, but it is the only way I know of at the moment to get the larger images. Almost all the artwork for the White Swan book has restrictions about enlargements, cropping, etc. However, a few granted such permission/approval but added additional fees to do so. I've found those restrictions for use to be more prevalent now from almost all holders.
Again, great to hear from you and please stay safe and stay well.
Regards, Rod...
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Post by shan on May 3, 2021 5:31:03 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply Rod,
meantime, I'll carry on peering into the paintings with my magnifier, for apart from anything else, its a good reminder to me as an artist that the primary thing an artist must learn is to look and keep on looking.
Unfortunately many so called experts seem to have a problem with this when it comes to the paintings the natives made, for a bit of hard looking reveals that many of the answers to some of the puzzles are right there in the work, especially in Standing Bears work. As an example, the flight to Deep Ravine and the subsequent death of the soldiers there, plus the Indian fatality lying amongst them.
Interestingly, there's a debate going on in one of the other boards at the moment as to whether the greys were run off from the Deep Coulee area towards, and then down into the ford below Deep Ravine. Now in Standing Bears paintings we see them being run off just North of LSH ~ towards the visitor centre if you like ~ and as you may remember, you and I have debated this in the past, partly because I wondered, being an artist myself, whether Standing Bear was forced to use the only available space he could find on his piece of muslin, in order to to depict what was obviously an important event for those were there at the time. I still have mixed feelings about that, but then there's no getting away from the fact that his workspace is very constricted, with an enormous amount happening, so maybe he did have to move the event over into the only space he had available.
anyway, thanks for your input, and keep up the good work,
Shan
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Post by Catherine Curtis on Nov 18, 2022 14:13:17 GMT -5
Rod, thank you for your dedicated scholarship that expands our understanding of what ledger art can teach us (culturally, historically, and artistically) and how it greatly enhances our understanding of many details about the battle of the LBH itself. Both your books (Rubbing out Long Hair and the new White Swan book) are fantastic resources for those of us interested in this remarkable communication form, providing new information so long after the events the drawings document. Best wishes and can't to see what you produce next!
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Post by rodthomas on Nov 18, 2022 15:09:25 GMT -5
Catherine, Aho'! as the Crows say! Great to hear from you and your kind words are very much appreciated. I have a White Swan for you but need a mailing address. Email to elkplainwriteratoutlook.com is fine. Thanks again and please enjoy a grand weekend!
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