Bull Bear and his family

[hreinn]

No, not Flying By.
The correct name is Fly Above.

[kingsleybray]

Pawnee Killer's wife in the 1890 Pine Ridge census is named Long Woman (Winyan hanska). Whether she is the same as Flies Above, the wife named on Lone Bull's genealogy chart, I don't know. Or whether she was the Cheyenne wife mentioned in 1867.

The document in question is in the papers of the commission investigating the causes of Indian hostilities (NARS Microfilm M740) It is from Gen. A. H. Sully to Gen. C. C. Augur, dated Ft Sedgwick, April 24, 1867. In response to Augur's inquiry about Pawnee Killer's whereabouts (at the time of the Hancock campaign on the central plains), Sully mentions that Pawnee Killer has a Cheyenne wife and that he "has always been with the Southern Cheyennes, and had but small influence, not extending to more than fifteen lodges." Until now he has been considered friendly to the US, has kept out of wars and "has rarely been north of the Platte."

These statements - obviously contentious in several respects - derive from Sully's fellow commissioner, the trader G. P. Beauvais. He mentions elsewhere in the correspondence that he had known Pawnee Killer for twenty years.

[hreinn]

OK. thanks

[hreinn]

Was there an another Little Wound ?

From Collier's field notes, based on an interview with Alex Charging Crow [1]:
"Little Wound (the Older), Short Bull and Standing Bull (B of Little Wound)"
Where Alex Charging Crow is listing those who were killed during a "drunken brawl", which "led to the separation" of the kiaksa and the Bad Faces".


Yes, at first I came to the same conclusion as Kingsley in the thread Standing Bull [2]:
1. that the Older Little Wound was Bull Bear 2 (killed in November 1841 at Chugwater Creek).
2. that this "drunken brawl" was the trouble at Chugwater Creek in November 1841
But to take it in that way, we have to ignore some information.
So, it actually becomes simpler to take it in such a way, that there was actually another and older Little Wound, who was neither Bull Bear 2 (d.1841) nor Little Wound son of Bull Bear 2.


Based on:
1. According to Collier - Alex Charging Crow [1]:
"The trouble that led to the separation of the kiaksa and the Bad Faces happened when my mother was about six years old (i.e. bet. 1810 and 1830)."

Alex Charging Crow was most likely born in 1844-1845 (or 1842).
Based on:
a) According to Alex Charging Crow himself in his Autobiography: "I was at the age of six years the winter of "The Big Issue" of the Sioux people took place," [3]
"The Big Issue" was in 1851, following the treaty at Horse Creek in 1851.
Which means he was born in 1844-1845.
b) According to 1900 Federal Census for Pine Ridge Reservation, Alex Charging Crow birthdate is given as Jan. 1844. [4]
c) According Alex Charging Crow's deposition in Sept. 1923 in connection with a suit about Black Hills, he said he was 81 years old. [4]
Which would mean that he was born in 1842.

If Alex Charging Crow's mother (Red Cedar) was between 16 to 26 years old when she had him.
It means she was born between 1816 to 1829 (which is close to year of birth of her brother Red Cloud who was born in 1821).
So she would have been 6 years old between 1822 and 1835, when the "drunken brawl" happened which Collier - Alex Charging Crow described.
Which fits to the split of the Bull Bear's people and Smoke's people in 1834.

This excludes the 1841 Chugwater trouble.
Because Alex Charging Crow's mother would not have been 6 years old in 1841 (and giving birth to Alex in 1842, 1844 or 1845 !)


2. According to Collier - Alex Charging Crow [1]:
"Before this trouble the Bad Faces and kiaksa were in one camp; they were all related. The camp used to be called Guhia. But after this trouble Little Wound's relatives splitt off and became the kiaksa. They got this name later."

This does not fit to the Chugwater Creek trouble in November 1841.
Because in November 1841, Bull Bear's people had been in the south for several years, since 1834.
The trouble at Chugwater Creek happened when Bull Bear's people came back.
So in November 1841, Bull Bear's people and Smoke's people were not in the same camp called "Guhia" (Kuyhian).
But they were most likely in the same camp in 1834, just before the split which lead to the traveling of the Bull Bear's people to south.


So the "drunken brawl" which Collier - Alex Charging Crow are talking about is another trouble than the troube at Chugwater Creek in 1841.
This is an older trouble, which was likely the original cause or part of the original cause for the split of the Bull Bear's people and Smoke's people.
Yes, perhaps disagreement regarding Fort Laramie trading was also a factor or perhaps the original trigger and then this "drunken brawl" happened.
And then the Kiaksa went south in 1834 and stayed there for several years, until they came back in autumn 1841.
Which resulted in still another drunken brawl at Chugwater Creek in November 1841, where Bull Bear 2 was killed, among others.


"the Older" Little Wound who was killed in this "drunken brawl", seems to be the namesake for Bull Bear's son Little Wound.
That there existed "Older" Little Wound, could mean that "the Older" Little Wound was literally Standing Bull's brother/"brother", as written by Collier.


References:
1. Collier's Field Notes, page 30
2. Kingsley in the thread Standing Bull, on Aug 29, 2014 at 2:51pm
amertribes.proboards.com/thread/2132/standing-bull-tatanka-nazhin
3. Autobiography of Charging Crow, page 1
4. The David Adams Journals, Edited by Charles E. Hanson, Jr., page 104

[hreinn]

Unfortunately, I need to address still another inconsistent information based on interviews with the old Lakoktas.
Hopefully it is just because of bad translation and/or misunderstanding by the white writer.
In question are Haviland Scudder Mekeel's field notes from 1931.
Where we have a "generations problem".


From Mekeel's field note from September 9, 1931, based on an interview with Spotted Elk, interpreted by Silas Afraid of Enemy:

"Bull Bear had six sons, the first was Little Wound (George, who is still living.).
The second was Bull Bear; the third, Cut Foot; the fourth, Left Hand; fifth or sixth Crazy Bull and Spotted Eagle, (my present interpreter).
The second son, Bull Bear, has a son still living (Lawrence)."



This has usually been taken to refer to 6 sons of Bull Bear who was killed in November 1841.
Understandably and probably in view of Mekeel's field note for the following day (September 10, 1931) based on an interview with Lawrence Bull Bear.

But based on the first sentence in the quoted text above it is a misunderstanding.
Because in the first sentence, the oldest son of this Bull Bear is George Little Wound "who is still living".
This George Little Wound is not the famous Little Wound (son of the famous Bull Bear).
Because this field note is from 1931 and then the famous Little Wound (b.1828, d.1901) was dead.
George Little Wound, son of the famous Little Wound, was however alive in 1931, as stated in the field note.
Besides the famous Little Wound was probably never called George Little Wound.
In 1886 Pine Ridge Census, the famous Little Wound seems to be listed as Bull Bear (# 3631), just as in the above field note from 1931.

So the sentence in the quoted text above is not refering to:
a) the famous Bull Bear (d.1841) and
b) the famous Little Wound
Instead it is refering to:
a) the famous Little Wound (Bull Bear in the text), the son of the famous Bull Bear and
b) George Little Wound (son of the famous Little Wound)
Where the text seems to refer to 6 sons of the famous Little Wound (b.1828, d.1901).
But not 6 sons of the famous Bull Bear (d.1841)

In view of this, it is in no contradiction that Henry Chatillion was married to a daughter of Bull Bear, i.e. Bear Robe.
Which has been taken as some misunderstanding, since Bull Bear was supposedly to have only 6 sons.

Any comments about these 6 sons of Bull Bear / Little Wound ?
Is it possible to verify by independent source(s) who was the father of these 6 brothers ?
Does modern descendants know when Lawrence Bull Bear, Mekeel's informant, was born and when he died ?
Is it the same person as person #3637 in Pine Ridge Census from 1886 with the same name Lawrence Bull Bear who was born in 1861 ?

The two Little Wounds are together in the photograph below.
Where the famous Little Wound is sitting and George Little Wound is standing.

[kakarns]

hreinn,

Is it possible that Mekeel is simply quoting George Little Wound (the son of Chief Little Wound) in the statement below ?

"Bull Bear had six sons, the first was Little Wound (George, who is still living.).

A document from Pine Ridge listing:
"Deaths Occurring Between the Dates of Jan. 1 to Dec. 31, 1936" - states the following:
George Little Wound passed on: 8/15/1936
Therefore, it is possible he participated in Mekeel's interview.

Refer: LaDeane Miller

kakarns

[bobyoung]

I am trying to identify the David Bull Bear who was with Buffalo Bill on the 1900 tour. He appears in newspaper accounts of the June 1900 death and burial of his "childhood friend" Albert Afraid of Hawk in Danbury, Connecticut. The story identifies him as "Chief" but even back then the media had a tendency to exaggerate. The article is as follows (with Native identities highlighted):


DEATH OF ALBERT AFRAID-OF-HAWK

from the New Haven (CT) Register, July 6, 1900





There was a strange scene in the hospital in this city [Danbury] last Thursday night, when two Indian chiefs, full blooded Sioux, arrayed in their native costumes, their faces still smeared with the battle paint, stood over the corpse of one of their tribesmen and pleaded with the Great Spirit to take his soul safely over the unknown river, upon the farther shore of which the happy hunting ground lies, says the Danbury News.



The dead Indian was Afraid-of-Hawk, a full blooded Sioux and a member of Buffalo Bill’s Wild West show. He fell victim to modern civilization. Canned corn killed him.



When the Wild West show reached this city [New Haven] nearly 50 of the performers and employees were ill. Some of them were unable to perform their customary duties, and the show was greatly crippled. The symptoms of all the sick showmen were similar. Physicians who attended them said that their condition was undoubtably due to something that they had eaten. The show people attributed the trouble to canned corn, which was served at dinner a few days ago. The water which the showmen drank in South Norwalk was also blamed for a portion of the sickness.



The Indians were the last to succumb to the complaint which prostrated so many of the other members of the show, but when Johnny Baker, Buffalo Bill’s adopted son, and the manager of the show, visited the tepees of the Sioux Indians, he found Afraid-of-Hawk deathly sick. He insisted that a physician should be called, and after a consultation, the chiefs, one of whom was the famous Black Hawk, decided that a white medicine man should do what he could to relieve the Indian’s suffering.



Dr. A.P. MacDonald was summoned. He found the sick Indian stretched upon a bed of blankets in his tepee. He was too weak to arise and the physician saw that he was a very sick Indian. He was questioned through an interpreter. Dr. MacDonald told Johnny Baker that the Indian could not survive very long. When the doctor made a visit to his Indian patient later in the day a reporter from the Evening News accompanied him. A score or more of Indians were standing in the neighborhood of the tepee in which the sick buck was laying. They made way for the doctor and then followed him silently into the tent. Afraid-of-Hawk was still lying upon his blanket bed. His face showed signs of suffering, though he bore his pain stoically, as a brave Indian should. The doctor knelt by his side and felt his pulse. Afraid-of-Hawk seemed grateful for the doctor’s efforts in his behalf. The other Indians looked on with grave and anxious faces. Two old squaws were crooning in a corner of the tent. A glance from Black Hawk silenced them. To the interpreter Dr. MacDonald said that the patient’s condition was grave. The interpreter repeated the information to Black Hawk. The chief nodded solemnly that he understood. Johnny Baker came while the doctor was there. When he heard that it would be impossible for the sick Indian to accompany the show to Pittsfield he asked that he be taken to the hospital.



“Spare no expense,” he said to the physician. “Save his life if you can, no matter what the cost may be.”



Accompanied by the Indian interpreter and several cowboys, Afraid-of-Hawk was placed in a wagon and taken to the hospital. Eagle Bear, another Sioux, who was suffering from the same illness, accompanied him.



As he was lifted from the tepee to the wagon Afraid-of-Hawk called one of the chiefs to his side and spoke a few words in his native tongue.



“He says he is going to die,” said the interpreter, turning to the doctor, “and he is bidding the other members of the tribe farewell.”



The Indians went out to a rising piece of ground and watched the wagon as long as it was in sight. Then they returned to their tents to prepare for the evening performance.



The advent of the Indians caused a ripple of excitement at the hospital, and the patients in the male ward looked with unfeigned interest at the unusual spectacle. The interpreter wore the same costume that he appeared in at the afternoon performance. He took a seat close by the bed of the sick man and occasionally conversed with the nurse who was assigned to take care of the strange patient.



The stalwart form of Afraid-of-Hawk was convulsed with pain, but he made no complaint. During the early evening he grew weaker. A few minutes before 10 o’clock he sank into a stupor and died. The interpreter went back to the show grounds to break the news to his friends. An hour later a coach rolled up to the door and Black Hawk and another chief alighted. The interpreter accompanied them. They were received by Mrs. Cutler, the matron. Black Hawk indicated a desire to see the body. With bowed heads the chiefs followed an attendant to the room where the Indian lay. There were tears in Black Hawk’s eyes as he turned, after a few moment’s silence, and said that he was ready to leave.



Afraid-of-Hawk belonged in South Dakota. He was 20 years old, and possessed of magnificent physique.



Eagle Bear, the other sick Indian is getting along nicely at the hospital, and his recovery is expected.



L.E. Decker, secretary of the Wild West show, and Davy Bull Bear, a Sioux chief, remained in town to arrange for the funeral of the dead Indian. Mr. Decker purchased a lot in Wooster cemetery.



The scene at the burial on Friday was unusual and quite impressive. By the side of a new made grave in Wooster cemetery stood a lone Indian. Surrounded by a knot of strangers, members of the race that has waged war of extermination on the noble red man, he stood with head bowed and bare as he watched the remains of his dearest friend, Man-Afraid-of-Hawk, being lowered to their last resting place on the banks of the sleepy little pond in the center of the necropolis.



David Bull Bear was the closest friend of Man-Afraid-of-Hawk. Both were from the Sioux tribe, and both came from the same village to become a part of Buffalo Bill’s Wild West. Friends from boyhood, they stood by one another through their younger days in their native country, and still clung to each other as they traveled through the land of the pale face. Faithful in life, David Bull Bear was steadfast when death came, and he remained behind the rest of the show to stand with bared head to see all that remained of Man-Afraid-of-Hawk laid to rest beneath the sod in the midst of strangers far from the plains both had loved so well.



Rev. J.D. Skene, pastor of St. James’ Church, performed the ceremony, using the simple, touching ritual of the Episcopal church. There was only a small knot of spectators present, and all stood with bowed heads, gathered about the grave.



David Bull Bear took his place at the head of the casket immediately on the arrival of the body at the grave. The face of his friend was uncovered and the Indian stood with head uncovered and hands clasped in front of him as he took his last look at the features of his companion. It was a strange sight. Clad in all the gorgeous finery of the Sioux race, he gazed, impassive, apparently untouched, at all that remained of his companion, the only one of the tribe to bid him farewell. Not the least sign of feeling was apparent in his demeanor, but an Indian would rather die a thousand times over than display the slightest indication of emotion, no matter under what circumstances. He watched the operation of replacing the lid on the casket and saw it lowered in the grave. Then he climbed into a coach and rode back to town.



The dead Indian was buried in an ordinary shroud. The clothes he wore at the time of his death will be shipped to his relatives. With David Bull Bear was L.E. Decker, of Buffalo Bill’s executive staff, who attended to the arrangements for the funeral.

[gregor]

hreinn,
i would conform with your reasoning.
But maybe some descendants of Bull Bear or Little Wound shed some light on this.
Toksha Gregor

[Dietmar]

Welcome Bob,

in the route book of the 1899 season of Buffalo Bill´s Wild West Show Daniel Bull Bear was listed as the interpreter of the Indian performers.





I haven´t found him among Gertrude Käsebier´s photographs. The McCracken Library has a portrait of a Lakota named Bull Bear, but I´m not sure if he´s the same man.



Bull Bear & wife

[kakarns]

Apr 19, 2012 10:23:46 GMT -5 Dietmar said:

Thank you Kingsley,
so in the case of Le Borgne the mention “brother” to Bull Bear should not be taken as in the European sense.

I re-read Parkman´s “Oregon Trail” again. He mentioned these men as chiefs or prominent warriors in the “Ogillallah” villages in 1846:

Le Borgne or One Eye “brother” to Old Bull Bear
Young Bull Bear, eldest son of Old Bull Bear, not more than 20 years old, “had oftener struck the enemy, and stolen more horses and more squaws than any young man in the village”, admired by the young men and women in the camp
Old Red Water “great friend to the whites” about 80 years old
Eagle Feather, son of Red Water, “man of powerful frame, but of bad and sinister face”
Big Crow, “brother” of Eagle Feather, “one of the most noted warriors in the village” “had slain, as he boasted to me, fourteen men”
Mad Wolf, principal man among the Arrow Breakers society “a warrior of remarkable size and strength, great courage, and the fierceness of a demon”
Panther
White Shield, “warrior of noted prowess”
“a half-breed Shienne”
Arrow Head
Hail Storm (young, but bound to be a chief) (younger brother to The Horse)
Bad Wound
Whirlwind “prominent Ogillallah chief”
Old Smoke

also:
Old Bull Tail
The Stabber

Do we have anymore information of the man Arrow Head ?

Thanks,
kakarns

[grigoryev]

Hello!
Francis Parkman, The Oregon Trail
"Mato-Tatonka was a hero. No leader could not compete with him in military glory and power over his people. He had a fearless spirit, and the impetuous and indomitable will. His wish was law. He was prudent and shrewd, he was always supportive of white, well knowing that could have great benefits for themselves and their supporters. When he had to make a decision, he gathered the soldiers and listened to their arguments, and then quietly announced their own solution that no one has ever challenged. The consequences of the failure of his imperious desires were too great. Woe to those who aroused his anger! He could hit it, or kill on the spot; and this act, performed by any other leader, immediately would cost him his life; the fear, told his name, let him repeat it with impunity again and again. In a community where, from immemorial time, no man has acknowledged any law but their own desires, Mato-Tatonka, the strength of his fearless decision, raised himself to the heights of almost despotic power. His haughty career finally came to an end. He had enemies eager for revenge, and our old friend, Smoke, together with his kinsmen, hated him most of all. Once the Smoke was sitting in his tent in the middle of your village when Mato-Tatonka arrived there alone, and, approaching his dwelling, addressed him in a loud voice, inviting me to go out if it was a man, and fight. The smoke didn't move. Then Matho-Tatanka declared him a coward and a woman, and, approaching the entrance to the tent, they killed the best horse of the leader, which was tied at the entrance. Smoke was daunted, and even this insult failed to call him out. Mato-Tatonka arrogantly left; but the day of reckoning was near.
One hot day, five or six years ago, numerous tents relatives Smoke gathered around people of the Fur Company, who traded a variety of goods, including whiskey. Mato-Tatonka was also there with a few guys. As he lay in his own tent, a fight broke out between his supporters and relatives of his enemy. He heard a war cry, the whistling of bullets and arrows, the whole camp was in confusion. The leader rushed out of the tent, calling for fighting to stop the collision. The time for the attack was pre-selected; as soon as the signal was given from two or three rifles rang out the string of a dozen bows, and the savage hero, mortally wounded, fell to the ground. A great noise arose, and did not stop until several people were not killed on both sides. When we were in the country, the feud between these two families still hanging over them, and is unlikely to stop soon.
Died of Mato-Tatonka, but he left an army of descendants, to perpetuate his glory and to avenge his fate. Besides daughters he had thirty sons. We have seen many of them marked with the same dark complexion and the same peculiar cast of mind. Of them, our visitor, a young matou-Tatonka, was the oldest, and some said of him that he surpassed his father. Although he was not yet twenty-one years, he scored many strikes on the enemy, and stolen more horses and more squaws than any young man in the village. We, the people of the civilized world, are not inclined to lavish praise such acts; but horse stealing is considered an art in the prairies, and various types of robbery are considered equally commendable. Anyone can steal a Squaw, and if you want, later I can make an adequate present to her rightful owner. The husband is satisfied, his vengeance is tamed, and any danger is averted, but the glory is lost. Mato-Tatanka continued this gallant and changeable custom. Several dozen squaws whom he had stolen, he never paid, and only the snap of the fingers the face of the offended husband challenged his indignation. No one dared to raise even a finger. He followed in the footsteps of his father. Young people and young Squaw admired him. They always followed him to war, and respected him, not trying to compete with his charisma. Perhaps his impunity may excite some surprise. The flight of the arrow from the valley, blow in the dark, does not require great virtue, and especially suited to the Indian genius; but Mato-Tatonka had a strong protection. It was not only his bravery and courage, which enabled him to rise among their comrades. His enemies did not forget that he was one of thirty warlike brethren. If someone decides to give vent to his anger against him, many keen eyes and many cruel hearts would thirst for his blood. Revenge, like a dog, would chase him everywhere. To kill Mato-Tatonka is like to commit suicide.
Although he had such support, he was not a dandy. As among us, such people are simple in manners and attire. Our young friend was indifferent to the gaudy attributes and ornaments of his companions. He was satisfied with the success of their own military advantages. He never dressed up in a bright blanket and didn't wear glitzy necklaces. His voice was especially deep and strong. It sounded from his chest like deep sounds of the organ. Still, in the end, he was only an Indian. Look at him when he lies in the sun before our tent, with your feet up and exchanging jokes with his brother. He's like a hero? Look at him in the hour of glory, when at sunset the whole village gathered to look at him because the next day their pet will be released against the enemy. Its superb headdress is decorated with the crest feather of a war eagle. His round white shield hangs at the breast, and the feathers radiate from the center, resembling a star. His quiver hangs on his back; a long spear in his hand, the iron tip flashing in the sun, while long strands of scalps his enemies tremble on the staff. Gorgeous champion circles around the tents, gracefully balancing on the military horse, and singing a song to the Great Spirit. Envious young warriors look askance at him, red-cheeked girls gaze in admiration, boys cries and the cries of the old women proclaim his name and spread praise from tent to tent.
Mato-Tatonka was the best of all our Indian friends. Hour after hour and day after day, when swarms of savages of all ages and sexes surrounded our camp, he lay in our tent, his lynx eye guarding our property.
...One morning we were summoned to the tent of the old man, hateful Nestor of his tribe. We found him collapsed on the pile of Buffalo skins; his long hair, even now were black as coal, although he saw approximately eighty winters. Anybody that knows the Indians and their homes are hardly going to believe me when I say that the dignity and self-control etched on his face. His gaunt but symmetrical figure, not so clearly showed the remnants of the old forces, how his dark, tired features, outstanding and impressive, with the imprint of mental energy. When I saw it, it reminded me of an eloquent metaphor of the Iroquois Shema: "I'm an old Hemlock; the winds of a hundred winters swept through my branches, and I'm dead upstairs!" Opposite the Patriarch was his nephew – the young pretender – Mato-Tatonka; besides these, in the tent were still one or two women.
The story of the old man is very interesting, and illustrates the superstitious traditions that prevail among many Indian tribes. He was a member of one of the powerful families, known for their warlike acts. When he was young, it was a rite, which most of the tribes carried out before the entry into adulthood. He painted the face with black paint; then, having found a cave in an isolated part of the black hills, he lay for several days, fasting and seeking the Great Spirit. In dreams and visions, caused by his weakened state, he imagined that he saw a supernatural discovery. Again and again the antelope appeared before him. Antelope – the spirit world Ogallala; very rarely this gentle visitor is introduced during lent for young people. Grizzly, the deity of war, is usually eager for military exploits and glory. Antelope spoke. She told the young dreamer that he should not follow the path of war; that a life of peace and tranquility was scheduled for him; henceforth, he was to lead the people, advising and protecting them from harm, their own hostility and disagreement. Others should obtain the glory of fighting the enemy; but greatness of a different kind was intended for him.
The vision that appeared during this period, usually determine the whole course of the life of the dreamer, with which the Indian is bound by iron superstitions. Since that time, the one-eyed (Le Borgne), the only name by which we knew him, left all thoughts of war and devoted himself to the forces of the world. He spoke about the vision of the people. They honored and respected him in this new incarnation."

In the text it is mentioned that Bull Bear had 30 sons. Parkman is wrong? Or is he right?

[runsagainst]

It says in the 1907 interview that Picket Pin that he was a son of Little Wound. Through research, i have not been able to confirm this. Im wondering if Picket Pin went by another name.

[hreinn]

As discussed in a post from August 5, 2013 in this thread.
There was an older Bull Bear.
Older than Bull Bear who was killed at Chugwater Creek.
Because Red Cloud referred to Bull Bear who died in 1841 at Chugwater Creek as "the younger" Bull Bear.
This older Bull Bear was a nephew of Little Wound (b.1828, d.1901) (son of Bull Bear "the younger"), according to Red Cloud.
In 1839, Wislizenus met a "rather aged" Bull Bear.
In 1846, Francis Parkman while visiting Oglala camp, said that Bull Bear and Le Borgne were brothers and Le Borgne was around 80 years old.


If we try to fit this older Bull Bear into the Bull Bear family, there are at least 3 possibilities:
1. The brothers Bull Bear and Le Borgne, were the same individuals as Stone Knife and White Swan.
2. This older Bull Bear was a brother to Stone Knife and White Swan.
3. This older Bull Bear was an uncle to Stone Knife and White Swan.

[hreinn]

Nov 7, 2018 18:36:32 GMT -5 kingsleybray said:

Bull Bear was born in 1783 according to an unpublished winter count.

His son Little Wound was born in 1828, according to Little Wound's own statement.

Marcell Bull Bear believes that White Swan was the biological father of Bull Bear. Other informed Oglala people believe that Stone Knife was the father. I think everyone acknowledges that Stone Knife and White Swan were brothers -- and as such, Bull Bear would have addressed them both as his ate, or 'father' in the Lakota sense.

The younger Bull Bear, was born about 1825, maybe a little before. He is not the same man as Whirlwind.

You have some interesting information here about Little Wound's wives and children. I don't know for sure how to straighten those names out!

Read more: amertribes.proboards.com/conversation/7925#ixzz5WDOYaNrM

OK. So we have a father (Bull Bear) born in 1783 and his oldest sons were born in ca. 1825 and 1828.
This would mean that Bull Bear was 42 years old when he had his first child and 45 years old when he had his second child and more children came later.
That is rather high age for a father to have his first children.
He is almost a generation "too old".
I think it is safe to say that this is not the standard age of a Lakota male to have his first children.
In Lakota society this was the age where you had some of your last children but not your first children.
This winter count reference fits better to an older Bull Bear, than Bull Bear who was killed in 1841 at Chugwater Creek.