Bull Bear and his family

[hreinn]

We are used to think that Bull Bear who died in November 1841 was the first Bull Bear.
But I think he was the second Bull Bear.
Because it seems there was an older Bull Bear.
Based on the following:


1. In Red Cloud's Autobiography (originally from 1893); [1]
"On the death of Bull Bear, the younger , the band remained without a chief until after the Sioux treaty of 1868"
(This was Bull Bear who was killed at Chugwater Creek in November 1841, based on the text just before in the book)

2. In Red Cloud's Autobiography; [1]
"At the suggestion of his friend, Nicholas Janis, then one of the interpreters, Red Cloud appointed Little Wound, nephew of the first Bull Bear, to the sub-chieftaincy"

3. As Kingsley Bray mentioned; [2]
"Traveller Wislizenus met Bull Bear in 1839 and described him as rather aged, and of a squat thick figure".
And Kingsley pointed out it did not fit to the looks and age of Bull Bear "on the portrait of Bull Bear painted from life by Alfred Jacob Miller in 1837".


Red Cloud was obviously making a distinction between 2 Bull Bears; "the younger" vs. "the first". [1]
This is backed up by the description of Wislizenus of a "rather aged" Bull Bear in 1839. [2]
Both Red Cloud and Wislizenus were first hand accounts ("eyewitnesses"/contemporaries to these Bull Bears).


Red Cloud's Autobiography was the result of co-operation of Red Cloud, Sam Deon (Red Cloud's friend) and Charles W. Allen (Sam Deon's friend), in the year 1893.
R. Eli Paul, the editor of Red Cloud's Autobiography, dismissed it as a wrong information that Little Wound was a nephew of Bull Bear; [3]
"Little Wound, Bull Bear's son (not his nephew as stated later in this story), gave a few biographical details on Bull Bear that appear in Walker, Lakota Belief and Ritual, 195".
It is understandable why Paul dismissed these Bull Bear's information, because in the aforementioned Walker's reference, Little Wound said his father's name was Bull Bear who was killed at Chugwater Creek.
And we have a confirmation of Bull Bear's killing at Chugwater Creek from Red Cloud's Autobiography.
But Paul oversaw the possibility that there was an another and older Bull Bear.
So as described above, I think these Bull Bear's relations information in Red Cloud's Autobiography was correct.


So we had a heavy set older Bull Bear who was related to Little Wound.
Because of the nephew term, we have several options.
As I understand the matter, the term nephew means a relation through a female (vs. uncle which means a relation through a male).
But it seems that sometimes this distinction is not made.
English speaking members can hopefully make a comment on this and tell if this understanding is correct.
That is the distinction between nephew vs. uncle and in the same manner; niece (on the female side) vs. aunt (on the male side).


But anyway.
Due to names going within a family and the nephew term.
It seems that these 2 Bull Bears were related (through some female ?).
Any suggestions ?


It is likely that this heavy set and older Bull Bear, was the Bull Bear who Francis Parkman said was the brother of Le Borgne. [4]
According to Francis Parkman, Le Borgne was around 80 years old in 1846 and therefore born around 1766.
If we say that a "rather aged" Bull Bear in 1839 would mean about 70 years old, it would mean that he was born around 1769.
Based on these assumptions, Le Borgne and the "aged" and "squat" Bull Bear were of similar age.
And could therefore have been brothers.


From Francis Parkman's book; [4]
"Le Borgne, which was the only name by which we knew him, abandoned all thoughts of war, and devoted himself to the labors of peace ........ A far different man was his brother, Mahto-Tatonka, who had transmitted his names, his features, and many of his characteristic qualities, to his son."
Parkman's words could also be interpreted as a confirmation that there was an older Bull Bear.
According to Parkman they were not nephews, but instead a father and a son.
But Parkman is not as reliable source for family connections as Red Cloud.


To summarize we have several Bull Bears;

Bull Bear 1
"the first Bull Bear". [1]
Described in 1839 by Wislizenus as "rather aged, and of a squat thick figure". [2]


Bull Bear 2
"the younger" Bull Bear. [1]
Killed at Chugwater Creek in 1841.
Father to Little Wound.
Brought about 100 lodges of Oglala in the 1834 to trade at what became later Fort Laramie. [5]
On a portrait by Alfred Jacob Miller from 1837.


Bull Bear 3
Oldest son of Bull Bear 2.
Brother of Little Wound.
Mentioned by Francis Parkman from the summer 1846 in his book The Oregon Trail.
Perhaps killed at an early age in a fight with the Crows and/or Shoshones. [6]


Bull Bear 4
Younger son of Bull Bear 2, who was adopted by his uncle Smoke after the killing of Bull Bear 2. [7, 8, 9]
Brother to Bull Bear 3 and Little Wound.
Seemed to have been called Younger Bull Bear.


Bull Bear 5
Son of Old Man Afraid of His Horse and given his name in honour of Bull Bear 4. [10]


Hreinn



References:

1. Paul (editor) "Autobiography of Red Cloud" Montana Historical Society Press (1997) page 70
2. Kingsley Bray in the thread Chief Smoke and his family in post on June 14, 2010
3. Paul (editor) "Autobiography of Red Cloud" Montana Historical Society Press, 1997, page 211
4. Parkman "The Oregon Trail" Oxford World's Classics, Oxford University Press (2008), page 134
5. Kingsley Bray in the thread Chief Smoke and his family in post on February 1, 2009
6. Hardorff "The Death of Crazy Horse", Bison Books (2001) pages 39-40
7. Wendell Smoke in the thread Chief Smoke and his family in post on January 29, 2009
8. Wendell Smoke in the thread Chief Smoke and his family in post on May 31, 2011
9. Wendell Smoke in the thread Chief Smoke and his family in post on June 20, 2011
10. Wendell Smoke in the thread Chief Smoke and his family in post on June 13, 2011

[wakiyanpeta]

May 7, 2013 16:56:48 GMT -5 hreinn said:

Interesting discussions.

I have never before noticed that the Spleen band was also known as Skokpa.

Even though there exists at least 2 different stories about the origin of the name Sans Arc.
It is tempting to connect the names Sans Arc and Skokpa.

skokpa (škókpá) = concave, hollow, bowl-shaped
which could be used to describe the shape of a bow, therefore referring to a bow.
So when part of the people forming Skokpa split off, it is easy to see the logic behind the name Sans Arc for the group which went away.
Where Sans Arc is from the French language and means; No Bows or Without Bows.



Additional detail:
In the Lakota language, Skokpa is not another word for Sans Arc nor Spleen.

Sans Arc = Itazipacol = Itázipčho
where:
itázipa = a bow
čhóla = without


Spleen = Tapisleca = Tĥaphíšleča
where:
tĥa = a ruminant (for example a buffalo)
phíšleča = spleen


The words:
a) Skokpa (Kingsley Bray's version in reply #25)
b) Skopa (Dado's version in reply #24)
seems to be more or less equal, according to Ullrich's New Lakota Dictionary.
where:
Skopa (škópA) = to be bowedor arched, warped, to be bent in a gentle curve
Skokpa (škókpá) = concave, hollow, bowl-shaped

Hreinn

Hello. My mom grew up in between Kyle SD and Allen SD in a canyon/valley that we have always called Skokpa (sh-coke-pah) and is also known as Yellow Bear Canyon or Yellow Bear Valley. I now reside in Kyle SD, and my mom in Alliance NE, but growing up I was told that the word skokpa just meant "down in the valley" or something along those lines. I wasn't aware that Skokpa was the name of a band/tiyospaye until coming to this website, but I've done a lot of my family tree, and a lot of the names you guys speak of on here, are my ancestors, most of which go as far back as being my grandparents' grandparents or even great grandparents. Yellow Bear and his daughter Mary Yellow Bear, FireThunder and his son Edgar FireThunder, Milk and Kills Enemy and their son John Milk, FirePlace and his son Dallas FirePlace, Hawk Man and his daughter Emma Haw Man, Susie Weasel Bear. These are all in my family.

[kingsleybray]

wakiyanpeta, great to hear from you and fascinating to hear about your family history. There is new evidence coming to light all the time about these early Oglala families and tiyoshpaye. For instance the Skokpa - this band in the generation 1850-75 seems focussed round a cluster of major families, notably Yellow Bear and Pawnee Killer. After establishment of Pine Ridge Res. they settled like you said btw Kyle and Allen. I have discovered some information that indicates that before the 1850s the Skokpa were part of a larger band called Minishala, Red Water. These came from the Sichangu to join the Oglala, but they had ancient origins among the Sans Arc Lakotas - one documented example of the free movement of Lakota families and bands from one tribal division (oyate) to another.

It would be fun to meet up. I am English, but I am coming to Pine Ridge for a visit in two weeks time. I will be giving a talk at Oglala Lakota College on Sunday, Sept. 22nd. Please drop by, or send me a message here if you'd care to chew the fat. The Fire Thunder family is a very interesting one in terms of Oglala tribal history.

[hreinn]

Sept 8, 2013 15:35:39 GMT -5 wakiyanpeta said:

Hello. My mom grew up in between Kyle SD and Allen SD in a canyon/valley that we have always called Skokpa (sh-coke-pah) and is also known as Yellow Bear Canyon or Yellow Bear Valley. I now reside in Kyle SD, and my mom in Alliance NE, but growing up I was told that the word skokpa just meant "down in the valley" or something along those lines. I wasn't aware that Skokpa was the name of a band/tiyospaye until coming to this website, but I've done a lot of my family tree, and a lot of the names you guys speak of on here, are my ancestors, most of which go as far back as being my grandparents' grandparents or even great grandparents. Yellow Bear and his daughter Mary Yellow Bear, FireThunder and his son Edgar FireThunder, Milk and Kills Enemy and their son John Milk, FirePlace and his son Dallas FirePlace, Hawk Man and his daughter Emma Haw Man, Susie Weasel Bear. These are all in my family.

Always good to see a Lakota person posting on this website !
It is very important to hear from the Lakota people.

Hreinn

[hreinn]

Apr 25, 2012 5:32:04 GMT -5 kingsleybray said:

Here is the relevant information on the Bull Bear family line in the Scudder Mekeel Field Notes 1931, White Clay Dist., Pine Ridge Reservation, American Museum of Natural History.

p. 57 - Informant Spotted Elk (Spotted Eagle?): "Bull Bear had six sons, the first was Little Wound . . . The second was Bull Bear; the third, Cut Foot; the fourth, Left Hand; fifth or sixth Crazy Bull and Spotted Eagle, (my present interpreter). The second son, Bull Bear, has a son still living (Lawrence)."

p. 58 - informant Lawrence Bull Bear: "Lawrence gave me his genealogy. On the male side his great grandfather's name was White Swan whose son Bull Bear, was murdered in the 1840's by Red Cloud's group. Lawrence said that this Bull Bear had a title like Red Cloud or Spotted Tail's, but he don't know whether he was chief over all the Oglala. This Bull Bear would be Lawrence's grandfather. His father's name was also Bull Bear, the one who tried to assume his father's place. White Swan had only four sons: Iron Hatchet, Crazy Dog, Bull Bear, and Self-Met (Iye itcila). Thompson Brown Bull was the eldest son of Self-Met. These four sons of White Swan all had wives and many children. It was a big family after this - a big group which stuck together. Self-Met had a son named Spotted Eagle. Iron Hatchet was the founder of the Paiyabaya Band. He formed a band after they got so big, and this was the beginning of the Paiyabaya. The name of the Kiyaksa originally was Kunhinyan. A Red Cloud woman used this word against the Kiyaksa (? My informant had this twisted). Bad Wound was called a son-in-law, so married a Bull Bear woman. I discovered that Henry Chatillon, Francis Parkman's guide, was called Yellow White Man by the Indians. Parkman tells of his being married to a daughter of Bull Bear. Lawrence told me that this woman's name was Bear Robe. She had a daughter who later married Young Man Afraid of His Horses. Frank Young Man Afraid of His Horses, a son of this later union, I later met at Kyle. He is a half brother to Amos at Oglala."

Little Wound told James R. Walker that his paternal grandfather was called Stone Knife, who was the father of Bull Bear. He didn't mention the name White Swan.

You were perhaps all aware of the meaning of the name of one of White Swan's sons, i.e. Self-Met (Iye Itcila).
But for years I had wondered what it meant (no laughing ! ).
I thought both versions of the name were in Lakota and I didn't understand the meaning of it.
But now I have figured it out.


Self-Met is the English version of the name.
Where Met is the English word mete.
Mete [1]:
1) to distribute or apportion by measure.
2) allot


Iye Itcila is the Lakota version of the name.
Where
Iye = Iyé [2]:
that one, to be the one
Usage: for emphatic purposes. for example; iye = it is he


Itcila = Ič'íla [3]:
1) to consider oneself, regard, consider, rate, hold oneself, think of oneself
2) to ask for something for oneself


So this name means something like:
He who allot himself
The one who takes his own share
The one who decides his own share
The one who gives to himself
He who gives to himself
The one who consider himself
The one who think of oneself
Takes care of himself
Takes Things


In the Index of The Crazy Horse Surrender Ledger is the name Takes Things
I don't have the book, but those of you who have it can perhaps tell if it is likely if this could be the same person (member of the Bull Bear family).
Based on the context of the name (if names close by are perhaps of members of Bull Bear's family).


Is something more known about this Self Mete (Self-Met) = Iýe Ič'íla (Iye Itchila) ?


Hreinn


References:
1. Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, dilithium Press Ltd. (1989), page 901
2. Jan Ullrich "New Lakota Dictionary", Lakota Language Consortium (2008), page 235
3. Jan Ullrich "New Lakota Dictionary", Lakota Language Consortium (2008), pages 184-185

[nicolas (carlo)]

Hreinn:

Takes Things is listed five times in the Crazy Horse Surrender Ledger. Unfortunately no Lakota names have been recorded, just the English translations. It's therefore impossible to know if Takes Things is the same in Lakota as Self-Met.

Listings:

1. Oglala, 3 women (no men, so this Takes Things is a woman)
2. Oglala Loafers, "under American Horse". Head of family, living in one lodge with someone named Cut Foot (*). Total 2 adult men, 2 adult women, one boy, one girl
3. Listed on issue list, no details
4. Beef Record, 8 pieces issued, no further details
5. Ration Tickets, 8 tickets issued, no further details

* The fact that under (2) a man named Takes Things is living in the same tipi as a man named Cut Foot is interesting, as Cut Foot was the name of one of Bull Bear's sons. However, it is not conclusive, as another Cut Foot is also listed as a head of family under Little Wound's Cut Off Oglalas. This second Cut Foot might well be Little Wound's brother.

Carlo

[hreinn]

Thanks Carlo !

Interesting to hear of Cut Foot.

Hreinn

[hreinn]

At first sight it might seem far reached to link possible members of the Bull Bear family, Cut Foot and Takes Things, to American Horse.
But there is a possible link.
They all were Southern Oglala.
Therefore it was perhaps not a coincidence that a photograph was taken of Little Wound and American Horse together in 1903 or 1904.



Does anyone know to which band(s) the lineage: American Horse (son) - Three Bears (father) - Sitting Bear (grandfather), belonged to among the Southern Oglala ?

Hreinn

[kingsleybray]

The building of Fort Laramie (formally Fort William, named after founder William Sublette) as a trading post in the summer of 1834 marks a fundamental turning point in the history of the Oglala people. In the fall some 100 lodges of Oglalas chose to move south from the Black Hills and locate their winter camp in the North Platte valley near the new post. Hitherto there had been a brief summer presence of Lakotas along the North Platte. The shift in winter quarters heralded a new, year-round presence. A move, incidentally, that seriously angered many of the Lakotas' traditional allies the Cheyennes.

The 100 lodges of Oglalas which accepted the tobacco of Sublette's messengers (John Sybille and Tom Kipland) followed the brothers Bull Bear and Mad Dog. These chiefs were subsequently considered by the Oglalas as co-founders of the new trading post - a salutary fact for colonialist and anti-colonialist readings of native history. Their band the Kuhinyan formed the core of the people moving south. If we compare what I've written on the Standing Bull thread, I think we can reconstruct in fair detail the composition of the 100 lodges. Equivalent to approximately 750 people, and knowing that a typical tiyoshpaye or extended family cluster comprised 50-100 people, I think we can see that there were approximately 10-15 such units in Bull Bear and Mad Dog's wintering camp, probably lumped in three larger groupings. Something like:

A. KIYAKSA
1. Bull Bear
2. Mad Dog
3. Self-Met
4. Iron Hatchet
5. Two Crows family
nb. no's 1-4 are brothers.

B. KUHINYAN
6. Little Bull
7. Lone Man
8. Man Afraid of His Horse II
9. Paints His Chin Red

C. OTHER
10. Calfskin Robe, Black Hawk (Shkokpa band)
11. Stabber (Wacheunpa band)
12. Standing Bull II (from True Oglala)

This left the majority of the True Oglala-Hunkpatila band in the north. They rejected Sublettes's tobacco, and spent winter 1834-35 trading near the Black Hills with traders from the Missouri river (notably Colin Campbell from Ft Pierre). Similarly sized to the Kuhinyan, they probably break down like this

A. TRUE OGLALA
1. Fast Whirlwind (Bad Face)
2. Sitting Bear (Bear "clan", according to descendant Joe American Horse)
3. Yellow Thunder (Refuse to Move Camp - name may refer to these events)
4. Ghost Boy (Oglala: shift to Oyuhpe maximal band after 1835)

B. TASHNAHECHA
5. Bad Wound II
6. No Water I
7. Black Rock (Sore-backs)
8. Smoke
nb Smoke was born/raised in Tashnahecha; in manhood belonged to Bad Face.

C. HUNKPATILA
9. Standing Bull III
10. Yellow Eagle
11. Black Elk-Makes the Song

I think that no's 1, 2, and 6 of the True Oglala-Hunkpatila maximal band may have joined the Kuhinyan after summer 1835 when the True Oglala-Hunkpatila and the other maximal band of the Oglala, the Oyuhpe, accepted invitations to attend a Kuhinyan-sponsored Sun Dance near Fort Laramie. The new trading zone was popular and a steady southern movement continued by the Oglala.

[hreinn]

Very good.
Looks realistic.

Additional detail would be Tapislecha band.
In the C group going south.

Calfskin Robe's son, Pawnee Killer, belonged to Tapislecha band.
And based on Collier interview with Lone Bull, it is likely that Tapislecha band existed in 1830s.
Because Lone Bull was born ca. 1853 and he said his father was from Pawnee Killer's camp.
Lone Bull's father would have been born in 1830s or earlier.
So it is likely that Tapislecha band existed in 1834.

In Collier's field notes within the Lone Bull interview chapter, on page 8, it is incorrectly listed that Pawnee Killer belonged to Skokpa.
I think it is Collier's error.
Because in Collier's text of the interview with Lone Bull, it is clear that Pawnee Killer did NOT belong to Skokpa.
Although Lone Bull never used the the name Tapislecha in the interview with Collier.
We know from other sources that Pawnee Killer's band name was Tapislecha.

In the Collier's interview, Lone Bull always said "Pawnee Killer's bunch" or "Pawnee Killer's following".
And made a clear distinction between Skokpa and Pawnee Killer's band (Tapislecha).
Examples:
1. "Another bunch that camped with Pawnee Killer was called skokpa (no flesh). Another bunch was called Guhia, led by Zola."
2. "At this winter camp were Pawnee Killer's bunch, the skokpa and the Guhia. There were two seperate camps in the bottom about 1/4 mile apart. In one was Pawne Killer's following and in the other were the chokpa and the Guhia"
3. "When we were in one camp the Guhia always camped on the NE. then the ckokpa, and Pawnee Killer on the south. The three groups staid separate in the circle."
4. "That winter on Beaver Creek there were two camps about 20 miles apart. To the east were the Guhia, and to the west the ckokpa and Pawnee Killers bunch."

Although Lone Bull is describing camps in 1860s, it seems that Tapislecha, Skokpa and Guhia (Kuhinyan) was an important group of the Oglalas going south.
Tapislecha seems to have been the largest of these 3.
Based on example 3 above.
Where Guhia are said to be "on the NE" (north east), which would correspond to somewhere between 0° and 90° within the camp circle.
Skokpa somewhere between 90°and 180° degress within the camp circle.
Tapislecha (Pawnee Killer) ("on the south") seems to cover everything between 180° and 360° within the camp circle (based on the assumption that the camp formed a complete circle, which was often/always the case).
So based on this, Tapislecha was perhaps equal in size as Skokpa + Kuhinayn together.
That is Tapislecha seems to be ca. half of the population in the camp.
Because Skokpa + Kuhinyan seems to cover 0° to 180° (in total/netto 180 °).
And Tapislecha seems to cover 180° to 360° (in total/netto 180°).
Perhaps Tapislecha was even a little bit more than half.
Based on that Guhia (Kuhinayn) was said to in the NE, but not north (N).
Which perhaps means that Tapislecha lodges were covering everything from South (S), South West (SW), West (W) and North (N) and extending to North East (NE) (where Kuhinayan lodges started).

[hreinn]

Re-read Collier's interview with Lone Bull.
Actually Lone Bull said that a winter camp in ca. 1861 consisted of over 200 lodges.
Consisting of:
a) over 100 lodges of Pawnee Killer's following (Tapislecha) and
b) over 100 lodges of Skokpa + Guhia (Kuhinyan).

[kingsleybray]

hi hreinn. I had not forgotten the Spleen (Tapishlecha) band. Shkokpa (which means hollowed out, concave, like a dish) was a forerunner of the Spleen band. The entry in the Hodge HANDBOOK OF NORTH AMERICAN INDIANS, vol. 2, p. 691, reads "Tapishlecha ('spleen'). An Oglala Sioux band, formerly called Shkopa ('bent'), the name having been changed on account of a member having eaten raw venison."

The core line then was Shkokpa. As you know from the Lone Bull interview with Donald Collier, and the genealogy chart drawn up from Lone Bull's information, the main Shkokpa family line runs back to two cousins, Slow Bear I and Wears Young Buffalo Robe. The latter was the father of Pawnee Killer and his brothers and sisters. WYBR is referenced in the Big Missouri winter count and in the David Adams journals, and I will refer to him by the name used in those sources - Calfskin Robe. It's a bit shorter. He must have been born in the frame 1775-1800. A generation back, I think his father was Sits in Wallow, a horse medicine man referenced in Clark Wissler's monograph on Oglala societies. This band, the proto-Spleen band, was derived from the Sichangu, according to Charles Turning Hawk (Scudder Mekeel Field Notes 1931). I suggest they were an offshoot from the Sichangu Red Water (Minishala) band, and that they joined the Oglalas c. 1775 - maybe about the time Sits in Wallow is making his own marriages.

Shkokpa was badly hit by the cholera epidemic of 1849, according to Makula's winter count.

So after 1850 the new name Tapishlecha was coined. One of the band elders used to go round camp after a buffalo hunt begging for the spleens, which he would collect and roast. According to Calico's remarks to Fr Buechel this elder was his 'uncle'. Going by the Lone Bull genealogy chart again, we see that Calico's mother was one of Calfskin Robe's daughters. So his uncle was probably an older brother of Pawnee Killer's, possibly Long Bear or Running Enemy on the chart, or maybe one we don't otherwise know about.

Also in the 1850s another headman in the band, Red Feather's father, found some kettles on the North Platte river "among the whites". So probably near Ft Laramie or the Oregon Trail. These kettles were a kind of dutch oven, they had legs to sit on the coals, so another name is coined - Kettle with Legs, Che-huhaton. Very schematically I suggest that by the 1860s, say, we have two main Spleen band tiyoshpaye: (a) Shkokpa and (b) Kettle with Legs; but BOTH are also collectively identified as Tapishlecha. Shkokpa tended to live with the Kuhinyan-Kiyaksa people in the Republican river country, associated with Pawnee Killer; Kettle with Legs tended to focus nearer the Platte, its leaders included Two Face and Blackfoot. Obviously there was fluid movement between both groups. The band must have been very dispersed (some in the Powder river country as well during the 1860s) and it only really re-consolidated as a united band after the establishment of Red Cloud Agency.

Ok, here's the interesting bit, we can see that a cohort of 'brothers' married into Shkokpa during the 1840s. These included the 'fathers' of Calico, Thunder Bear, et al. - a bunch of brothers and cousins including Two Face, Blackfoot, and Standing Cloud. We know these men were related in this way from accounts of the hanging of Two Face and Blackfoot and its aftermath in 1865. Here's my guess - right now I can't 'prove' this, but my guess is that these men, born in the years centring round 1820, belonged to the old, now dispersed Shiyo band. Remember the Shiyos? These men all made marriages into Shkokpa in the frame c. 1842-1845+, marrying 'sisters' of Pawnee Killer and going to live in Shkokpa (as part of the larger Kuhinyan-Kiyaksa maximal band). They added a new strand to Shkokpa, generating the new Spleen-Kettle with Legs family clusters over the period 1845-60. So I think that the Spleen band of the 1870s and 80s, the period when the Oglala tribe settles down at Pine Ridge was in George Hyde's observant phrase "An old band, now strong again." I think we can suggest it was generated out of intermarriages linking the old Shkokpa band (itself derived from the ancient Red Water band) with the dispersing Shiyo band. As such it's an instructive example of the ways in which Lakota bands merged, divided, and generally morphed - but not in a random way: we can detect the strands running back through generations into the world before Lakotas had horses. Exciting stuff.

[hreinn]

Many new details.

OK., yes, I buy the Shiyo bit.
A Cheyenne dimension of the Shiyo band, could explain the close tie between Tapislecha and Cheyenne.
Tapislecha and Cheyenne were so often together, that it must have been due to an extensive and close family connections.
It must have been more than 1 marriage.
More than the marriage of Lone Bull's Cheyenne grandmother and Lone Bull's Lakota grandfather.

A Shiyo dimension within the Sichangu (Brulé) was perhaps also the glue between the Southern Sichangus and Cheyennes.

[kingsleybray]

hreinn, Pawnee Killer himself had a Cheyenne wife, according to a document from 1867.

[hreinn]

That is interesting !
Was here name Flying By ?
Flying By was the wife of Pawnee Killer according to the genealogy tree by Lone Bear in the Collier's papers.
Do you know what document mentioned the Cheyenne wife of Pawnee Killer ?

But still, I think that marriage is not enough to explain why so large part of the Oglala, under the leadership of Pawnee Killer, were so often camped with the Cheyennes.
Yes, a close family of Pawnee Killer would follow him, but hardly to such an extend as it seems to have been.
But additional relationships through Shiyo connections could explain it.

Have you heard what was the name of Pawnee Killer's mother, who was captured by U.S. Army in autumn 1869 ?
She was questioned by Major North through his Ponca scout.
Do you know her faith after that ?
Was she released to her folks later ?