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Oyuhpe
Jul 30, 2016 16:49:54 GMT -5
Post by kingsleybray on Jul 30, 2016 16:49:54 GMT -5
yes, thanks, hreinn ... the way I see the Treaty of 1825 for the Oglala now (I think I'm 'sure' now) is that the four pairs of Chiefs and Warriors represent the following bands: TRUE OGLALA - Standing Bull & Black ElkSHIYO - Shoulder & Lone BullKIYUKSA - Crazy Bear & Bull BearHUNKPATILA - Ghost Boy & Crazy GhostI still contend that Crazy Ghost's in-marriage -- from Oyuhpe, into Hunkpatila -- is one significant factor in the return of the Oyuhpe into the Oglala hoop ten years after the 1825 Treaty. The Oyuhpe (again I now know this) were originally a sub-grouping within Hunkpatila, going back many centuries; early in the 1700s they formed a separate band, and in the mid-1700s realigned their wider affiliation from the Oglala to the Miniconjou. There was no Iron, or Rawhide Curtain -- they remained in contact with their Hunkpatila and Oglala relatives throughout the period - but their main association was to Miniconjou and Sans Arc until 1835. Then, as we sketched yesterday, they decided to reassert their primal identity as of the Oglala oyate.
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Oyuhpe
Jul 30, 2016 16:57:46 GMT -5
Post by hreinn on Jul 30, 2016 16:57:46 GMT -5
OK. Fine. Does the male name Iwayusota mean Smoke something ? (-sota = smoke) The "famous" Smoke or Smoke's relative ? Charging Hawk (Crazy Ghost's father) was married to a sister of a man bearing the name Iwayusota, the latter also being a sub-band name within the True Oglala band.
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Oyuhpe
Jul 30, 2016 17:09:07 GMT -5
Post by kingsleybray on Jul 30, 2016 17:09:07 GMT -5
Iwayusota -- means to use something up with the mouth -- that's sota, not shota (smoke). You can explain it a number of ways -- but Dave Bald Eagle's daughter Nita explained to me how you'd use the expression after a row or quarrel: "I've finished now, I've Used Up All My Words" . . . I think that was the sense, these people had put aside an old and crippling quarrel way back in the middle-1700s, one that had divided the whole nation . . . fascinating stuff
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Oyuhpe
Jul 30, 2016 17:13:25 GMT -5
Post by hreinn on Jul 30, 2016 17:13:25 GMT -5
Yes, fascinating !
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dado
New Member
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Oyuhpe
Aug 1, 2016 2:50:01 GMT -5
Post by dado on Aug 1, 2016 2:50:01 GMT -5
Hello Kingsley, we have already been waiting for: Finally fascinating details about the history of the Oglala Nation before 1850. Wow, thanks for that! Here are some questions that are not clear to us: In which group ofn the "five sub-bands of the Oyuhpe band" we find the elements of the original "Gartner Snake Earrings" (only in the Susu-ikitchu, only in the Oyuhpe-hcka, or in both)? Are there any other information about the "Maka-itchu" and their leader "His Horse Is Visible"? Is there also still an evidence to the chief "Tobacco" (painted by Catlin)? Greetings from Germany!
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Oyuhpe
Aug 1, 2016 5:01:46 GMT -5
Post by kingsleybray on Aug 1, 2016 5:01:46 GMT -5
dado, the Maka-itchu or Takes Earth tiyospaye was a very old one, predating the Oyuhpe-Hunkpatila divergence which took place early in the 18th c. Red Dog (c. 1815-c. 1885) married into this group. He was a Hunkpapa by birth. His following was still called "Makaicu" as late as the 1890 Pine Ridge census.
The Susu-ikitchun name was coined at the end of the 18th c. (ballpark); and Wakan and Makaha were groups (Sans Arc and related) that only joined the Oyuhpe post-1800. So --- the primal sub-bands of Oyuhpe in the 1700s must have been Oyuhpe-hcka and Takes Earth. There may have been sub-groups whose names are lost to history of course. I have at least one sub-group or family name that I've never heard of in any other account -- must be just a small family group in the 1800s but who knows they may have been important players a century earlier.
The Gartersnake Earrings only emerged as a distinct band in the 1820s, is my understanding. As said it was largely created out of intermarriages across the previous generation between Oyuhpe folks and people from the Wakpokiyan band of Miniconjou (the band identified with the Lone Horn and Lame Deer families). I don't think we can be so precise as to say if one particular sub-band (remember these are only 50-100 people at any given moment) was the founding group - though for sure a single founding marriage must have started the whole thing off. When a new band was formed, if it achieved 'take-off', it attracted people from everywhere anyway.
Tobacco: I've had to revise my ideas about this chief, the one painted by George Catlin at Ft Pierre in 1832. He had Oyuhpe connections, including an Oyuhpe wife, and may have lived among them for some time (1820s?) while they were still associated with the Miniconjou. But Tobacco was one of the headmen in the Payabya band. His descendants are important in the lines coming down through Payabya and the Kettle with Legs band that settled on Pine Ridge near Holy Rosary Mission (today's Calico community, immediate neighbours of Payabya community).
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dado
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Oyuhpe
Aug 1, 2016 9:06:46 GMT -5
Post by dado on Aug 1, 2016 9:06:46 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply, Kingsley. If we interpret the following correct? At about 1800 the Proto-Wakan tiyospahe split off. Part joined the Oyuhpe, part the Hunkpapa and a further part the Itazipcho. It would be exciting to know: Was the tiyospaye called Wakan in the period before a part of the Hunkpapa or Itazipcho? What are their ideas on this?
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Oyuhpe
Aug 1, 2016 15:12:03 GMT -5
Post by hreinn on Aug 1, 2016 15:12:03 GMT -5
Here are more questions ! It was somewhere mentioned that Oyuhpe came late onto the prairies/plains. So they had not been long on the plains with Hunkpatila when they moved to Mnikhówozu. For how many years (circa) did Oyuhpe stay with Hunkpatila, before they moved to Mnikhówozu ? What triggered the offspring of Oyuhpe from Hunkpatila in ca. 1766 ? Was it the split of the Lakota nation following the Arikara war ? Was it following the event when the 3 brothers (Split Rock, Dreams of Pretty Places, Buffalo Horn Spoon) threw dust into each other face ? After Oyuhpe returned to Oglala hoop in 1835, was there some kind of "Rawhide Curtain" between Oyuhpe and Mnikhówozu or Oyuhpe and Itazipcho ? Is it corectly noticed that the population of Oyuhpe seems to have been similar og larger than of Hunkpatila throughout the centuries ? Especially after the augmentation of Oyuhpe from other Lakota branches.
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Oyuhpe
Oct 29, 2016 16:52:32 GMT -5
Post by carlo on Oct 29, 2016 16:52:32 GMT -5
Kingsley, For what it's worth... Going through Neihardt's interview notes just now, I came across a comment by Eagle Elk on the Oyuhpe origin: "[...] my father was a member of a band called Oyuhpi [sic]. That name was originated in the Yankton tribe; we don't know what the name means." Note that Eagle Elk's mother was a Yankton.
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Deleted
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Oyuhpe
Feb 28, 2017 18:32:47 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 18:32:47 GMT -5
Another amazing thread to digest. And to think I started looking for the origin of the Bad Bad thiospaye!
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Deleted
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Oyuhpe
Feb 28, 2017 22:50:29 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 22:50:29 GMT -5
Thinking of the comments of George Sword about words being made up of syllables, I've come up with the following literal translation of Iwayusota:
I- (prefix) by means of (+) wa- (prefix) cutting (+) yusota -- used up, consumed
Putting them together my results yield "consumed by cutting" which I take to mean taking a piece of roasted buffalo into the mouth and then cutting off the remainder. A delicate operation if you think about it.
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Deleted
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Oyuhpe
Feb 28, 2017 23:00:57 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 23:00:57 GMT -5
Using the same technique I've also come up with a literal translation of Wakaichu (the name given in the tiyospaye surname index):
Wa- (prefix) sharp (+) ka- (prefix) striking (+) ichu -- takers.
Payawayatakan comes out as:
Pa- (prefix) pushing (+) ya- (prefix) them (+) wayatkan -- drinking.
And finally, Payabaya comes out as:
Pa- (prefix) push away (+) ya- (prefix) them (+) ba -- reproach (+) -ya (suffix) cause
which is a more complicated idea that the simple "pushed aside" that is typically given.
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Oyuhpe
Mar 11, 2017 9:59:19 GMT -5
Post by kakarns on Mar 11, 2017 9:59:19 GMT -5
dado, the Maka-itchu or Takes Earth tiyospaye was a very old one, predating the Oyuhpe-Hunkpatila divergence which took place early in the 18th c. Red Dog (c. 1815-c. 1885) married into this group. He was a Hunkpapa by birth. His following was still called "Makaicu" as late as the 1890 Pine Ridge census. The Susu-ikitchun name was coined at the end of the 18th c. (ballpark); and Wakan and Makaha were groups (Sans Arc and related) that only joined the Oyuhpe post-1800. So --- the primal sub-bands of Oyuhpe in the 1700s must have been Oyuhpe-hcka and Takes Earth. There may have been sub-groups whose names are lost to history of course. I have at least one sub-group or family name that I've never heard of in any other account -- must be just a small family group in the 1800s but who knows they may have been important players a century earlier. The Gartersnake Earrings only emerged as a distinct band in the 1820s, is my understanding. As said it was largely created out of intermarriages across the previous generation between Oyuhpe folks and people from the Wakpokiyan band of Miniconjou (the band identified with the Lone Horn and Lame Deer families). I don't think we can be so precise as to say if one particular sub-band (remember these are only 50-100 people at any given moment) was the founding group - though for sure a single founding marriage must have started the whole thing off. When a new band was formed, if it achieved 'take-off', it attracted people from everywhere anyway. Tobacco: I've had to revise my ideas about this chief, the one painted by George Catlin at Ft Pierre in 1832. He had Oyuhpe connections, including an Oyuhpe wife, and may have lived among them for some time (1820s?) while they were still associated with the Miniconjou. But Tobacco was one of the headmen in the Payabya band. His descendants are important in the lines coming down through Payabya and the Kettle with Legs band that settled on Pine Ridge near Holy Rosary Mission (today's Calico community, immediate neighbours of Payabya community). Fellow Members, I have been trying to do some research on the TOBACCO family. It all started with a copy of a partial page, of the 1890 Pine Ridge Census that included the name, TRANSPARENT. I've been going back on different occasions to gaze at this Census and wonder if..., it was possible that this woman named TRANSPARENT could be my G.G.G. Grandmother. This name is quit rare and actually the documents that I have list her full name as, TRANSPARENT STONE. When a person has limited resources, it is very easy to start to speculate, assume, guess, grasp at straws, etc.. So anyway, I've had this particular 1890 Census since, 10/16/12. The past few days I have been trying to research the names on my partial page, read what info. is posted on A.T., etc.. When cross referencing with the Mike Stevens site and information from LaDeane Miller, this is what I have so far; Listed above TOBACCO is: #290 1118 Gi iciya - Painted Yellow - m fat 50 b. 1840 1119 Ite ska - White Face - f wife 48 b. 1842 1120 (Mato) Winhota -Roan (Bear) - f wife 38 b. 1852 - [Note]: Mato and Bear added by; kakarns 1121 Winyan Waste - Pretty Woman - f da 3 b. 1887 - [Note]: Pretty Woman was the daughter of, Roan Bear. Pretty Woman under went a name change at some point and is listed on M. S. site as; *Wicincala Waste - Good Girl* #291 1122 Canli - Tobacco - m fat 81 b. 1809 1123 Ta sunke - Her Horse - f wife 47 b. 1843 1124 Mato ska - (William) White Bear - m son 23 b. 1867 Canli - (Adam) Tobacco - m son 17 b. 1873 - [Note]: Added by; kakarns per, M.S. site 1125 Ceha ? - Fat - m son 16 b. 1874 1126 Ho waste - Good Voice - f da 8 b. 1882 #292 1127 Sina luta - Red Blanket - m son 33 b. 1857 1128 Canli - Tobacco - m bro 37 1853 1129 Janjanyela - Transparent - f mot 81 b. 1809 Refer: 1890 Pine Ridge Census (I think, from July 1, 1890 - Melt, Shannon Co., SD) LaDeane Miller files Mike Stevens - Tiyosapaye site kakarns
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Oyuhpe
May 3, 2017 13:25:38 GMT -5
Post by grigoryev on May 3, 2017 13:25:38 GMT -5
Susu-ikitchun.This was I propose a single tiyospaye of 65-100 people (about 10 lodges) before 1835, focussed on the elder Eats Buffalo Meat. From an accident this man lost his testicles, and so his following was given the name Susu-ikitchun. He is noted in an 1831 fur trade document as The Mashed Testicles, included in a list of Miniconjou headmen. In 1835 it joined the Oyuhpe movement to attend the Oglala Sun Dance. En route it attracted adherents including Lone Bull, the 'brother' of Eats Buffalo Meat's younger kinsman Charging Hawk; I believe Lone Bull had been living in the Shiyo band as its head soldier, but that band decided not to attend the Oglala ceremony - it went east to the Missouri. Lone Bull took the opportunity to return with a small following to his own natal band. Also Crazy Ghost, the son of Charging Hawk, who had been living in the Hunkpatila band of Oglala, chose to rejoin the Susu-ikitchun about the same time -- again bringing a few lodges with him. These additions to the Susu-ikitchun helped it grow two new tiyospaye, focussed on the leadership of (a) Charging Hawk and (b) his brother-in-law Iwayusota. So it numbered up to 200 people after these accessions, about 25 lodges. Hello Kingsley. Donald Collier - Oglala Field Notes - Box 72, Folder 5 "... Frank Goings aged 68 Eagle Elk aged 87; father named Long Wirlwind. Belonged to the oyukhpe camp Another names was susuikiktsula (the ones who castrate themselves), after inf’s GF, who lost his testicles in an accident... The following Oglala chiefs had camp followings: 1. Wolf Necklace 2. Fains Sleep 3. Bow Legs 4. Yellow Hair 5. Lives Alone 6. Owns a Beat 7. Itching 8. Eats Buffalo Meat (FF of informant) nephews (?) 9. Charging hawk: with him were his two Gets Along Well and Tripe, his son Crazy Ghost and Long Whirlwind (F of informant) 10. Oyuxpe catka (left hand oyuxpe) 11. Singer 12. Enter a Virgin 13. Iwayusota, his son – Roach 14. Red Willow. Married a wazaza woman and went over there. His son Guts remained in Charging Hawk’s camp 15. Heart Man (Dirt on his nose) 16. White Plume; his son Big Road 17. Lone Horn Camp of Charging Hawk Susu-ikitchun tiyospaye № Names Relationship 1 Charging Hawk–chief 2 Gets Along Well BS (?) of #1, his father was Money? 3 Tripe B of #2 4 Crazy Ghost B of #2 5 Long Whirlwind some sort of cousin of #1, whom he called “F” 6 Wistasu WBS of #1, his father was Iwayusota 7 Covers his Head WBS of #1, his father was Iwayusota 8 Bark WBS of #1, his father was Iwayusota 9 Roach WBS of #1, his father was Iwayusota 10 Kills First (Yellow Blanket) S of #2 11 Non Dress cousin of #1 12 thingy B of #11 13 Yellow Hair B of #11 14 girl thingy all alike cousin of #1, 10-12 15 Among called #1 “B”, relation? 16 Spring his Legs called #1 “F”, relation? His F was Lone Buffalo 17 Guts called #1 “F”, relation? his F was Red Willow, who married into wazaza camp 18 Little Boy called #1 “F”, relation? His F was Smells. Little Boy married a woman in the Loafer camp, whose chief was Big Mouth and went to live there 19 Few Tails S of #7, WBSS of #1 20 White Horse cousin of #1 21 Capt. John Lone Dog cousin of #1 When Charging Hawk died his cousin Yellow Hair became chief of the camp. ..." Are you sure that Crazy Ghost, was son of Charging Hawk, but not "son"? To which bands belong the 17 leaders represented in this description? I think, for example: 4, 8, 9, 13,14 - Susu-ikitchun 10, 11, 12, 16 -Oyuhpe-hcka Thank you
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