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Post by kayitah on Apr 27, 2011 14:24:58 GMT -5
The title says what I'd like to know more about. There's an abundance of information about Apache-Mexican and Apache-American relations, but material on simple everyday life is, unfortunately, extremely scarce. As a child I have read many books about America's First Nations in general. I remember reading that some tribes even used somekind of mouthwash made from natural ingrediences, while bathing daily in the cold mountain streams. When I visited the Navajo People a couple years back, I was told that in the old days, their people used to chew pine resin to kill bacteria in the mouth. I tried it and it had a bittersweet taste. It wasn't bad at all, but you have to get used to it. I didn't find ANYTHING (except for some chunks in Goodwin's masterpiece "The Social Organization of the Western Apache") about Chiricahua or Western Apache hygiene, yet they mostly appear very well-groomed, cleanly, and healthy in contemporary photographs. There are exceptions, sure, but I always had the impression that the Chiricahua and Western Apache (which have been my main-focus for the past 14 years or so) have a much cleanlier appearance than the average white American of that time. You must understand that my sympathy, interest, and fascination run very deep, hence this post which may be of minor interest to many history buffs. I couldn't think of any better place to pose this question, as I know that many people in here share my "affection".
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Post by coeurrouge on Apr 27, 2011 15:08:52 GMT -5
in Loco's book, the author talked a little about that. He said that when Chiricahuas lived in a dry camp (at far distance of a creek), they became not clean and their health was less better. In contrary, when in a camp near a creek, they were very clean and healthy. I think that Chiricahuas needed running water for their body cleaning and even the weather was bad, they do their dayly cleaning. Except pressure from whites, surviving behavior not allow them to be clean.
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Post by jeroen on Apr 28, 2011 7:55:57 GMT -5
Good idea to bring this up Kayitah! Like you, I could find very little about this for the Chiricahuas. When in Arizona, years ago, I went on afield trip and friends pointed out several plants that were used by Apache people in the old days, including for cleaning and washing hair. (Unfortunately, I don't recall which plants exactly). There are also references that Apaches even went bathing in the coldest weather and both men and women spent countless hours with grooming eachother's hair. It is my impression that, in times of peace and tranquility, the people in general were healthy and clean (which would be in common with most Native American nations), certainly much cleaner than the average White people in those days. Of course, it would also depend on the individual; Sladen in his journal, for instance, mentions that some Chiricahuas he met were very dirty, but Cochise himself, on the other hand, appeared neat and clean.
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sasja
New Member
Posts: 42
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Post by sasja on Apr 28, 2011 8:58:25 GMT -5
I read somewhere the lather from soap tree yucca roots was used to clean their hair with.
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Post by tiswin on Apr 29, 2011 19:56:12 GMT -5
So Jeroen what evidence do you have that the native Americans were "certainly much cleaner than the white people" Please list your sources. And since you group Native Americans together vis a vis their cleanliness please see "Empire of the Summer Moon" where the author depicts the hair grooming ritual as picking out lice. The Apaches "Chiricahuas" lived in the dirt as did the white people and Mexicans. You're fantasy that the Chiricauhas or other Indians were cleaner than any white people is laughable. Again, please list your sources. And, to your point, the white people were dirty, I don't dispute that. So was everyone else, including the Europeans at that time. But please, let's not fantasize the "Chiricahuas" into Holy Smokes Smell Good People!
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Post by jeroen on Apr 30, 2011 3:18:57 GMT -5
Tiswin, my main point is not that the Chiricahua were cleaner than white people, please read with a bit more care (and if you quote me, please do it correctly, for I said average white people, not all). My point is, that Apache people, in times of peace and tranquility, were, like most Native people, clean and healthy people. They knew very few, if any, deseases associated with sanitation problems, obviously because they moved camp regularly (unlike white people) Also, personal cleanliness was, in my opinion, part of a cultural heritage, see for example the crucial element of bathing in the coming of age ceremony. To me, your assumption that all people (Apaches, whites and Mexicans) lived in the dirt back then seems a bit too simpel. Like I mentioned before, Tiswin, I also could find little direct references (or evidence as you call it), but history is not an exact science, but interpretation. From my posts on these boards you can see that I always choose my words carefully, my ideas and thoughts are based on many years of reading countless sources ( An Apache life way, Survival of the Spirit, Bourke's booksand others for this issue), personal observation and learning from other people. Your assumption that I fantasize the Chiricahua into Holy Smokes Smell Good People is ridiculous and, in fact, insulting. Next time, I advise you to pick your words less carelessly, for I don't like the tone of your music.
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Post by kayitah on Apr 30, 2011 9:16:25 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for contributing.
Actually, I don't think that most people in the U.S. "lived in the dirt" back then. We're not talking about the Dark Age but about a time that's a mere 100 to 150 years in the past. But we can agree that people didn't have the same awareness to it as they have today.
Lice, by the way, do not come because of a lack of cleanliness.
I have just found the following text passage (p. 567 ff.) in Goodwin's "The Social Organization of the Western Apache":
Formerly, both men and women were careful to keep their hair well combed and looking nice, and they generally took some pains to appear neat. Even children were taught that they should not let themselves look unkempt. Those who permitted their hair to go uncombed and wore dirty clothes were considered lazy and consequently poor also. Bodily cleanliness and new clothes were almost prerequisites for participation in certain ceremonies to gain the approval of the supernaturals. "Unless you take a bath and dress nicely, you will smell bad, and they will not like you," it was said. In ordinary life old clothes were no disgrace as long as they were reasonably clean and free from raggedness. The pride taken in personal attire varied considerably; some dressed showily, and others did not. A nice attire was always admired and considered a sign of wealth, but it was by no means necessary to high social status, as is shown by the fact that some chiefs almost always dressed in old clothes. Modern conditions remain much the same.
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Post by Mithlo on Apr 30, 2011 10:01:47 GMT -5
AMEN Jeroen!!!!!!....As Chiricahua, I found his words rude, sarcastic, and insulting to the memory of my peoples long tragic history! Opinon is one thing, yet namecalling is "UNCALLED FOR"!!!!! Tiswin, my main point is not that the Chiricahua were cleaner than white people, please read with a bit more care (and if you quote me, please do it correctly, for I said average white people, not all). My point is, that Apache people, in times of peace and tranquility, were, like most Native people, clean and healthy people. They knew very few, if any, deseases associated with sanitation problems, obviously because they moved camp regularly (unlike white people) Also, personal cleanliness was, in my opinion, part of a cultural heritage, see for example the crucial element of bathing in the coming of age ceremony. To me, your assumption that all people (Apaches, whites and Mexicans) lived in the dirt back then seems a bit too simpel. Like I mentioned before, Tiswin, I also could find little direct references (or evidence as you call it), but history is not an exact science, but interpretation. From my posts on these boards you can see that I always choose my words carefully, my ideas and thoughts are based on many years of reading countless sources ( An Apache life way, Survival of the Spirit, Bourke's booksand others for this issue), personal observation and learning from other people. Your assumption that I fantasize the Chiricahua into Holy Smokes Smell Good People is ridiculous and, in fact, insulting. Next time, I advise you to pick your words less carelessly, for I don't like the tone of your music.
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Post by kayitah on Apr 30, 2011 16:38:40 GMT -5
I have found an interesting study. It happens to be about the plains indians, but since the Apache had a comparable lifestyle as nomadic hunters and gatherers that didn't stay in one place for long, it may at least partially apply to them as well. The catalyst for tuberculosis and other diseases weren't their traditional ways of life, but the often desolate conditions they faced on reservations and, in case of the Chiricahua, in exile. www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/05/010529071125.htm
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Post by naiches2 on Apr 30, 2011 16:59:35 GMT -5
I'm sorry, perhaps I could touch someone... I have read many historical books (non-fiction), not only about Indians, but also about the history of the Middle Ages. All nomads tried to live in purity, but they have not always had the opportunity to wash. A hygiene in the modern sense of the term came to Europe from the Arabs (who were nomads), a historical fact.
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Post by kayitah on Apr 30, 2011 17:02:05 GMT -5
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Post by tiswin on Apr 30, 2011 18:16:05 GMT -5
Jeroen, I meant no insult, and using the word "laughable" was out of bounds. All of my posts are laughable. I agree that in the years 1850-1860 maybe 1870 the Apaches had peace and did bathe in New Mexico. The white men had not come yet. Then they came. And as you pointed out when they were on the run (Apaches} no time to bathe.
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Post by Montolzh on Sept 10, 2011 15:18:18 GMT -5
I read somewhere the lather from soap tree yucca roots was used to clean their hair with. Yes, Yucca root made good shampoo, I am always on lookout for Yucca, very useful plant.
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Post by Montolzh on Sept 10, 2011 15:20:20 GMT -5
Sweats are used to purify the body and spirit as well. Good series of songs with a short dip inbetween
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Post by jasper4 on Dec 14, 2011 0:23:02 GMT -5
Tiswin, my main point is not that the Chiricahua were cleaner than white people, please read with a bit more care (and if you quote me, please do it correctly, for I said average white people, not all). My point is, that Apache people, in times of peace and tranquility, were, like most Native people, clean and healthy people. They knew very few, if any, deseases associated with sanitation problems, obviously because they moved camp regularly (unlike white people) Also, personal cleanliness was, in my opinion, part of a cultural heritage, see for example the crucial element of bathing in the coming of age ceremony. To me, your assumption that all people (Apaches, whites and Mexicans) lived in the dirt back then seems a bit too simpel. Like I mentioned before, Tiswin, I also could find little direct references (or evidence as you call it), but history is not an exact science, but interpretation. From my posts on these boards you can see that I always choose my words carefully, my ideas and thoughts are based on many years of reading countless sources ( An Apache life way, Survival of the Spirit, Bourke's booksand others for this issue), personal observation and learning from other people. Your assumption that I fantasize the Chiricahua into Holy Smokes Smell Good People is ridiculous and, in fact, insulting. Next time, I advise you to pick your words less carelessly, for I don't like the tone of your music. You are right anyway due to in europe the plaque spread rats and such so sources read european history. Yucca, catus, herba buena(I only know it in spanish) and as has been stated in good times we had time but as we were hunted by the mexicans then anglos for our hair, well some do understand while living in the mountains or the black range and the gila a slight more cleaner than 'living in dirt' or INDE are/were Mountain types IE sierra madre. Laa'de'ste
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